Do you really want us to leave...

[guest2013]

I'm European.
Last night I stupidly allowed myself to rise to someone telling me to go back to where I came from.. it ended up with about 6 people arguing with me and they were adamant that foreigners are to blame for the country's problems.
It's absolutely shook me to my core.. I feel very strange today, I've never, in my 8 years here had any negative comments. Lucky I suppose.
Are people who think this way unreasonable? Are there any exceptions where immigrants are a negative thing?
Do any of you think this way?
I'm not looking to carry on arguing but this is a safe way to discuss and I would respect your opinion.
Thanks

No, if you read the article she says that the guidelines that go with the application form say that if you have a good reason not to provide the original documents required you can submit certified copies instead. She got a solicitor to certify a copy of her passport so she could retain the original to travel to the Netherlands where her father is seriously ill. The process of applying for nationality can take months so hardly anyone will want to submit their original passport. The Home Office, ignoring its own guidelines, rejected the application because she had not submitted her passport. They then told a woman who has lived in the UK for decades, married to a UK national, bringing up two children who are also UK nationals, that she should prepare to leave the country as she had no reason to be here.

To me it seems pretty obvious how this connects to a discussion about how unwelcome many non-UK nationals now feel in this country.

What's changed since 24 June ?

Well, should be nothing.
She currently has the right to remain, which won't be taken away unless Brexit goes in a very unexpected direction.
Sounds like the Home Office are being deliberately unpleasant, dreadful PR too - the govt should instruct them to stop writing "prepare to leave" letters.

In contrast in Germany: the civil servants (July 2016) specifically said a UK passport gives me an unlimited right to remain, at least until / unless Brexit specifically changes that.

Also that any Brit who's been legally resident in Germany for 5 years by the time Brexit actually happens should still be able to obtain permanent residence anyway.
I had no forms to fill in.
They didn't want to see my passport, know my history, or ask about dependents.

Sorry I've not been back until now.
I have read and appreciate everyone's comments. Especially the positive ones.
I have reported these people who I encountered last night as it was a work function. However, although it was anonymous, one of their partners have found me on Facebook and sent abusive messages for 'grassing' on them.
I feel like I've created a terrible situation. Lesson learned, never engage in debate with racists.

In fact, I might ask for this post to be removed just in case??

Guest2013 I'm so sorry about this, it's awful to hear about. No I absolutely do not agree one single iota with them. I'm the wife of an immigrant and the daughter of an immigrant. Drawing all these big fat fakey stupid rubbish lines of 'difference' makes my blood boil. Report them to Facebook. You've done nothing wrong.

Sorry you were spoken to like that, this country would be in a sorry state if it were not for both European and non European immigrants.

OP

They had already said how much they loved living there, that it was a lovely little bit of England in the sun (all English pubs serving full English breakfast and Sunday roasts) loads of other retired Brits to hang out with (so they weren't bothered about social integration) but that they were voting 'leave' as they thought there were too many immigrants abusing our welfare system who didn't bother to learn the language and not enough jobs for young people.

I was spluttering into my tea and getting a right old rage on their utter idiocy when to the credit of the news reporter he basically pointed out all of the parallels and that local communities here (Spain) may feel similarly. The look of confusion / disbelief on her face made it all worth it.

And this is the calibre of person who has upended our lives, and has a good chance of wrecking it completely. Thanks so much.

No please stay. NHS would be even more on its knees.

I don't want you to leave any more than DS1's amazing French French teacher or the enthusiastic, highly intelligent researchers I speak to on a regular basis as part of my voluntary work or anyone else, for that matter.

There's a fair few British WASP heads that need knocking together, though. Some for being dicks, and some for being so utterly ignorant and blinkered.

I'm an immigrant originally on my dh EU visa. He's had a few 'jokey' comments but thankfully I've had none. But I think it's because I'm not European weirdly enough

Report the abusive messages also OP. To police if your work place do nothing about it.

Only read your OP so far. Sadly I'm not surprised at what you were told but think it's disgusting. No, I certainly do not agree. I do know people that do though. One openly puts all sorts of crap about it on Facebook, the other told me she voted for Brexit because we are full and need to stop the foreigner froms coming over. I hope she doesn't spout these views in front of some of the European parents at school!

Guest,
Understand this country is a nation of immigrants. My DP is Dutch/Irish.. (and part Yorkshire). My family name derrives from the French invasion of 1066. My great grandparents had to change their name to Choules because in 1914 to be called Schults was very bad news. But that's the thing. Herr Schults identified himself as English and even went as far as to change his name to be part of England.

That does not happen when people arrive in very large numbers. Keeping the culture, language, clothes and relegion that reflect the country that was left behind, they create ghettoes that refuse to integrate. Such behaviour can cause resentment from the indigenous community. I grew up around Luton. It used to be an industrial English town. Today it is populated by a community that looks like Pakistan with women wearing full face masks and men dressed in traditional clothes from a foreign country.

When I see that, I do wonder why did they come here. So in answer to your very important question, do I want you to leave. My answer depends on how you choose to behave. Become part of England and add to it, please stay. Remain in the place you, or your parents left, I would rather you did not stay.

Even the Brexit voters aren't generally seriously expecting EU nationals already here to go. There is a serious debate to be had about future arrivals and as the son of asylum seekers - they were called refugees in those days - I am deeply torn; but I see the difference between asylum-seeking and economic migration.

Guest2013 please take screenshots of the abusive FB message and take this to your HR department. You may also want to consider involving the Police.

Take Brexit out of the subject and add in anything else - your sexuality, your disability, you name it.
This would still be harassment. Whatever your thoughts on the EU.

And it took place at a work function - your employer has a duty of care towards you and this includes keeping you safe from abuse of any kind at work functions.

The FB message is meant to intimidate you, but it has now provided yet more proof of the events. These bullies have just given you their heads on a platter, serve them up.

Firstly, sorry you experienced that OP. Hope you're feeling better.

I've got some experience of this as I work in HR. Things are not always as they appear. Some examples....

We had a house-keeping department that was manned (wo-manned!) entirely by women from one Eastern European Country, about 12-15 staff on average. We had a perpetual ad in the job centre for staff and would get British people applying (British people of all skin colours). The British people would start and would very quickly leave. The head of the Department, who was often the only British person, said this was due to British people not wanting to do menial work for minimum wage. Her deputy was the woman with the best grasp of English and was used as a translator. I always had her involved for the compulsory health and safety inductions and, as many in this department didn't speak any English, I assumed she told them which boxes to tick on the questionnaire. One British woman who left told me a different story though. She said that even those who could speak English refused to engage with her and I can certainly confirm that she sat alone in the canteen at break and lunchtime, effectively she was frozen out. Exclusion is a form of bullying and I'm not certain that the head of department's idea that British people are too lazy to do this work (which is actually rascist) is the reason so many left.

Likewise our kitchen porters. All "the children" (her words) of the Head of Department, but this time all originating from the same part of Africa. In my tenure we had one British person (recruited by the chef) taking the role and he didn't last the week.

So if people are speaking about immigrants monopolising jobs, then yes, the examples I give do reflect this. British people do apply for and take on menial roles for low pay, so the idea that they won't is another myth (as well as being rascist, as mentioned before).

Another myth is that immigrants come here for our NHS. I have worked with and become friends with people from all over the world. A couple of my Polish friends have invited me to stay with them if I ever need dental work because our services here are so expensive and shoddy. Another woman, from the House-keeping department I mentioned above, returned home to have her baby saying there was no way on earth that she'd give birth in a NHS hospital.

People cherry pick the arguments that serve their own point of view, but things are rarely black and white.

The people who think this way are bigots and do not speak for the country. Please stay and flourish.

Op I agree report the abusive messages to Facebook then screenshot them and send them to HR. That's how stupid these people are. They have now provided you with proof of what they have done.

Sleep is right about one aspect of this. In general I want people to stay but the biggest issue seems to be wheth you don't just have the nice Jewish immigrant up the road or the Pole on the corner or Mr Patel in the corner shop but instead 90% of your council workers are from the same region of India. It is not surprising - most people hire people like them wheether that be posh white public school male or one department I know where everyone was gay as they recruited people like them! (that's quite rare). But it can make locals feel excluded. Our council had to ban people speaking in their native tongues at work for this kind of reason about 15 years ago. last year my son was the only white boy in his class and yes a lot of the non whites are second generation born here so of course are English but it does massive change things whereas if the immigrants are say just 10% or 20% of an area then I think it's more acceptable to people.

Also when most people suddenly become sexist and homophobic and women cover up you feel you have been transported without moving into England circa 1880 despite your ancestors fighting tooth and nail for equality. As if we are being dragged kicking and screaming back 100 years. (I am not of course here talking about white French atheists from Paris working in London as bankers or native Spanish 20 somethings working in coffee shops)