This puts me off Girl Guides.

[NormaStanleyFletcher]

I always expected Girl Guides to be a fully female environment. And WTF about not telling parents if it isn't?

"Thanks for your email, and taking the time to read our updated equality and diversity policy. If an adult self-identifies as a woman then they are able to undertake all adult roles in guiding including becoming a Leader. This means that they may also, if they wish, make their Promise.

With regards to sleeping arrangements at residential events, it is important to work with the trans individual when organising accommodation rather than making assumptions or arrangements without consulting them. Some people may not feel comfortable sharing accommodation so in this case an alternative option should be provided. As membership of Girlguiding is decided based on gender identity (the way a person self-identifies their gender identity), there is no requirement to provide any documentation to evidence their transition. Please also be advised that it is not best practice to tell parents that a trans person will be attending a residential event.

You may find our Let’s Talk about Gender and Gender Identity resources helpful to support any conversations around this topic, should the need arise. At the back of each document, there are also some links to recommended external sources which will also provide some helpful advice on this.

I hope this is of help, but if you have any further queries, please don’t hesitate to get in touch."

What basil said.

It's depressing that so many of you don't get it.

bluesnowdog
We've heard leaders saying much the same thing over and over again on this thread. What I want to hear is why there is no concern about the feelings of girls who chose a girls-only organisation and are now required to welcome males.

I know transgirls identify as female. I recognise that they are males who identify as females and where no-one else is affected I will treat them as such, but they are not female. Saying so is not from a desire to cause them distress, but from a desire to stick to the truth and scientific fact. How do you accommodate both girls and transgirls? Is there any discussion with the girls, or, as I suspect, is it a case of, 'Get with the programme or get out?'

It's not illegal to exclude males. Under-18s can't have a Gender Recognition Certificate so it's definitely not illegal as no child is legally trans.

Adult males with a GRC can be excluded if it's for a "legitimate aim" like if women would be put off attending if a male was present at, say, a rape victims' group, thanks to the Equalities Act.

Trans rights activists and the Women & Equalities Committee are working to dismantle sex-based protections such as this. However it seems the activists are already successfully convincing organisations to voluntarily dispense with these rights for women and girls.

"Get with the programme or get out?"

It is exactly that Charles. It's been said several times on this thread alone. Throw women and girls under the bus to defend the 'rights' of males

That's exactly what's happening Sporadicus.

And with regards to "pretending to be trans" - there's no such thing any more.

Self declaration is all, according to the OP. If a man says he's a woman, he is. No dress required, let alone hormones and surgery. That's what self declaration means, and that's the way we're heading legally.

I do wonder if GG leaders will be required to lie to girls, if they were to question the presence of an obviously male GG?

Exactly, no one can say these people aren't trans. They don't have to pretend anything. People are so clueless about all this.

I am really getting sick of the transgender movement which is plainly a Men's Rights Movement. Identify how you wish, but children have rights--and that includes the right to privacy. I would expect that adults (male and female) sleep separately from children, but no, I would not want a male who identifies as a woman to see my daughter in any state of undress. This is just obvious.

I am sorry that these individuals have psychological issues, but the more we give them a pass and pretend they are women (they are not), the more we risk doing real psychological damage to ourselves and our children. Men cannot be women. They are free to flounce and flit, wear tutus, call themselves Twilight or Ninotchka, I really don't care. But the moment they ask the rest of society, to include children, to enter into their fantasythe demand it reallythis is a real violence. Nobody would tolerate that trans are discriminated against or denied any basic rights as the rest.

We need to push back and stop giving up our basic human right to call out this culture of brainwashing. These are men. And there is nothing wrong in acknowledging that and protecting children against the demographic that has the most potentiality to do them harm.

Yes, and how exactly does this help sufferers of gender dysphoria?

At my kids rural UKIP school there are two children who are trans, both are very much their own sex really in their subtle behaviours. I watch them act out how they perceive the opposite sex to be. It's really quite shocking.

UKIP school

They have schools now?

It's a sort hand for the demographic.

On the one hand, risk hurting or alienating a genuine trans woman.

On the other hand, risk an abuser, possibly a paedophile, having free access to girls.

Which is the clear lesser of two evils? Sorry but I'm with that one!!!

Noooo sparkly You must be on the side of the males. Always. Otherwise you are being mean and nasty.

And besides, females are used to putting up with everything being our fault, rape, sexual assault, lower wages, less logical.

I don't particularly think that my children would be safer in guides than scouts, or that trans women in guiding would put my children at risk, both organisations have strong safeguarding policies.

For me the point is that gender is just stereotyping. Girl Guiding should be against stereotyping girls by it's very nature. This is why they should stick to being single-sex rather than changing to single-gender.

Yep, my view of GG is now that they are sexist and dishonest. I'd rather DD went to Scouts tbh, or are they still quite religious?

I can't believe the amount of people on these threads who don't understand this issue. It surprises me every time. There seem to be lots of people patting themselves on the back, thinking about what a lovely, inclusive person they are, blindly walking into a situation where the rights of girls and women are eroded in favour of men.

Sex is a fact. You are born with a vagina and are a woman - backed up by science. Gender is an idea. It's the way society thinks women do or should behave, backed up by stereotypes and tradition. I don't fit into this stereotype, and nor do most women I know. I don't wear much makeup, I don't like pink, I don't paint my nails, I don't wear dresses... I don't need to fit that stereotype because I am a woman. I just am. I don't need the offensive term 'cis' applied to me, because there is already a term to describe me. It's 'woman' or 'female'. I don't 'feel' like a woman, I just am one. Is there any way of feeling like a woman without resorting to offensive stereotypes and trivialising women?

I don't have daughters. I only have sons and a husband. I am worried about these things for myself. I see people talking about the fact that girl guides segregate based on sex being a problem, and highlighting the fact that there are differences between boys and girls, concluding that they should already accept boys because there is no difference. It's jumping the gun. If our society were already entirely equal, there would be no need for this separation. Our society is not equal, so it is needed as we work towards that.

A lot of people also seem to mistakenly believe that only trans women who are 'transitioned' would be allowed these rights. This is not true. This is discussing self identification, where anybody can decide they feel like a woman so must be treated as one, allowed into your private spaces and you are wrong if you are unhappy with this. You are being told to ignore your instincts, which are so, so important for girls (as they are socialised to please people) and risk your own safety.

Every time this issue crops up I am reminded of two things. Like many women, I have been sexually assaulted many times throughout my life so far. A man tried to rape me in a nightclub. I was very drunk, he came out of nowhere and grabbed me, tried to get his hand inside my knickers and shoved his tongue into my mouth. I was initially confused and thought he must have mistaken me for somebody else, until I tried to take a step back and he told me he wasn't letting me go until he had fucked me. I shouted and screamed and pushed and twisted my arms round and round but it was so loud and crowded that nobody noticed or heard me. He was dragging me away somewhere and I finally managed to twist my arms free, and ran as well as I could through the crowd, but he was chasing me. The only thing that stopped him was when I finally got to the women's toilets - the one place he couldn't go without it being noticed. My arms were covered in bruises. Imagine if men were allowed in women's toilets and women had been told that they were not to question that, because they may feel that they are a woman, so have a right to come into secluded spaces where they are vulnerable. It makes me feel sick.

The other thing I'm reminded of is a boy I went to high school with. He was a sex offender in training. Funnily enough, I can remember him standing outside the girls changing rooms telling our p.e. teacher that he was in fact biologically a girl and they couldn't force him to prove he wasn't, so he should be allowed in. It was always played down, eyes rolled. He used to draw violent, humiliating rape porn in cartoon style and leave it on our chairs. We sometimes had to go and play badminton at a place close to our school and walk there in our p.e. Kits. Girls had to wear a skirt. For some reason, we got there once and the place was closed. Our teacher asked that we put our trousers back on and he immediately placed himself in front of me so he could watch. Directly asking him not to do that didn't deter him - he felt no shame about his behaviour. The idea that he was humiliating me and there was nothing I could do about it was what he enjoyed. He wouldn't have seen anything anyway, he just enjoyed making me feel humiliated and vulnerable. It is people like him who will abuse this idea. There is no doubt in my mind that he would have claimed he 'self identified as a woman' to further his harassment of women. I'm not so naive as to assume that there aren't plenty of twisted people out there who will abuse this, given the chance.

I believe that transmen and transwomen must be desperately unhappy and I really feel for them. It doesn't mean that they are magically transformed into a person of the opposite sex and that women's safety and dignity should be pushed aside to make way for them.

"For me the point is that gender is just stereotyping. Girl Guiding should be against stereotyping girls by it's very nature. This is why they should stick to being single-sex rather than changing to single-gender"

That sums it up nicely.

Great post Splandy and for you.

Splandy, an excellent post. Thank you.

Great Post Splandy

I was discussing this with my teenage DS and he was incredulous that a boy could simply identify as girl and be allowed to change with the girls. He said that he knew of a few boys who would take advantage of this.

Now clearly it's not just a case of shoving on a dress. Yet. But the acceptance of this and the gender fluid crap, how long will it be until it will be a case of deciding one day to the next what gender you are and expecting everyone else (ok the girls) to just fall in?

Do people wilfully misunderstand this? Do they really not get what self identification means? How big is this fecking virtue ignalling bubble?
Trans issues have moved on rapidly in just a couple of years, there's an odd and uncomfortable psh to mainstream it.
With self I'D a big hairy MAN can say he's a woman, because, you know, feels.
Bollocks. Literally. How do you FEEL like a woman?

The GG as well as many other orgs have lost their fucking minds. As for those shrieking transphobia, you wait until your slightly effete son says he's a girl and wants blockers aged 9, you say "darling, let's wait and see" whilst secretly suspecting he may be gay. You're accused of violence and damaging his mental health.
Why are we tolerating gay conversion therapy? Why are any GC opinions shouted down?
Agh, too pistes off with this to post coherently

YY Mercy. What accommodations do the "non binary" want, exactly? What is the point of them joining the trans lobby? Do they expect to be able to pick and choose which facilities they use at their own whim?

A couple of observations.
Safeguarding is in place in GG and Scouts and most other child focused organisations. Yes there may be problems but what is being suggested by some on here would be mimimal.
Anyone 'transitioning' will be at much greater 'risk' of being 'called out' for any indiscretions, simply because society is more wary of anyone 'unusual', that is nature.
The children are NOT stupid and can form their own opinions, likes and dislikes about anyone. OK younger ones may have difficulty expressing why they don't like or are uncomfortable being with some people but discussions between parents and leaders can sort this out.
To think that GG would be 'safer' with a totally strict female only leadership is just plain daft, there are 'bad' women out there too and possibly more devious than men in that the presence of a male leader in 'inappropriate' places (outside changing rooms for example) would cause concern among other leaders.
In many scout groups there will be girls who are more 'stereotypical boy activity enthusiastic' than many of the boys. Interested in axes, knives fire etc.
GG, Scouts and other similar organisations are all about the CHILDREN having the best experiences possible while being as safe as possible.
An evening with 26 Scouts (mixed about 50/50 boys/girls) 5 axes, a dozen or so knives and a couple of saws, what can possibly go wrong?