To be told if a boy is sleeping with the girls at girl guides camp

[Babieseverywhere]

The guides have changed their guidance on boys attending meeting, trips and over night stays.

Previously the rule was no boys allowed.

Now all boys allowed but don't tell the girls or parents, unless the boy and his parents give permission !

There are already a massive amount of forms for attending rainbows, brownies, guides or Senior section which need signing, from permissions for photos to health and safety for activities but if a boy want to watch my 10yo undress that is ok and no one will be asking permission from my daughter or us !

How can this be legal ? Do girls have no rights in the UK in 2017 ?

Guides article online

Seriously, not? That's appalling, and completely inappropriate when you were dealing with an abusive partner.

Yes, of course feminist posters on MN are just as unreasonable and bad as transactivists who want to ban the term FGM because it hurts their genderfeelz.

I wonder if girls want to join scouts because they perceive it as more fun? When I was a guide, albeit a long time ago, the scouts and guides camped near each other. The boys built a zip wire, swam in the lake and had races. The girls had to collect leaves from the wood, paste them onto paper and identify them.

I'm sure activities are more gender neutral these days. But I wonder if a perception still persists.

I have only read some of this thread.

I am a Guide leader. TBH I had seen there was updated guidance but not read it until I saw this thread, as it is not an issue that we have in our unit.

Speaking for my unit, and other local units, we try our best to be inclusive and mindful of the needs of all our members with the aid of a bit of sensitivity and common sense.If we had the situation where a member's religious beliefs meant that she could not share accommodation with a trans-member we would incorporate this into our plans.

Or people who as Datun said, on hearing a woman has a miscarriage, are thinking, "but that's exclusionary of me me me me me, so she should shut the fuck up about it."

If that's still the case its (is it?), then it's little wonder that women feel there something wrong with a boy wanting to join the guides, because of that stereotyping. It's saying that this is what women DO. And if you want to do that you have to be female. and if you don't want to do that, you have to go and do what boys do. it doesn't take much of a leap to realise that boys and girls if they want to step out of their gender stereotyping, have little place to go other than to identify as the opposite sex.

Its Yeh, that's a pretty common complaint (too many crafts, not enough outdoor stuff) most of the Brownies/Guides I've met LOVE cooking, which is probably why it happens so much, by the time they get to Guide age they get a lot of control of their program so can choose which activities to do. The program changes will be addressing that though, ensuring choice but maintaining variety, and hopefully improving quality of leadership in areas where it's lacking :)

The program at Guides is girl-led. So we do the sorts of activities the girls choose. Our guides like cooking and baking! As leaders we have a responsibility to have a varied program. Certainly in my unit this year we are going camping where there will be a chance to do some "adventurous" acitivities, we're going to a pop concert, we're looking at cyber-safety as well as playing games, cooking and doing crafty stuff. As the topic for this thread has shown, Girlguiding is moving wth the times.

wictional it came as quite a surprise to me last year when posting on feminist threads about my child who is transgender that I got support, and a bloody lot of it, when I calmed down and explained things from my side and my child's side in a clear, calm and rational manner.

Having a child who is currently presenting as the opposite sex is bloody hard, we have encountered bigotry and transphobia beyond anything I can explain here.

There has been no transphobia on here. Maybe a little bit of dramatics, from certain people on both sides in all fairness but no transphobia.

The thing is if we looked at the one issue of a particular 10 year old being allowed into the guides there is the choice there for that 10 year old to be catered to, things to be put into place and protect everyone's privacy.

It isn't about that one 10 year old anymore, it's a change of policies right across the board from facilities used by 5-105 year olds and it's a blanket change of policies that effect everyone.

Now anyone can access anything on a whim due to how they feel at any given time.

That's a huge issue.

I said up thread that two years ago nobody started these threads, nobody really noticed or cared because being transgender wasn't just waking up one day and fancying changing gender.

Now that's exactly what it means. A bloke could decide he wants to be a woman for an hour and stand in a shower with his knob hanging out, getting off on women's reactions, and nobody can say a word because he's a woman for an hour. These transgender children will possibly be transgender adults in 8 years time as well so it's not like the issues aren't intertwined.

There is a certain responsibility that comes with having a transgender child to make sure they have equal rights but without trampling over the privacy of others. If my child continues this path into adulthood then I hope I've done enough to make sure my child has a balance of fighting for their rights while respecting the rights of others too.

Whereas I am probably more open than some to thinking that a transgender child should absolutely be allowed into the guides I would definitely not be in favour of sharing showers and tents, however a transgender child would still be equal in the fact they will have a shower and a tent and join in activities.

That's not transphobia, that's basic respect.

Wic

Can you read?

Where does that poster say she wants to shun the trans child and have them be lonely? You even copied and pasted it so you should know what it says!
It says share a tent. Not shun. Not cast in to a life of loneliness.
Not share a tent with a penis. Are you really saying thats ubreasonable?

Christ I have seen ut all now. Copy and paste a comment then completly change what it says.

Sorry Wic but you just made yourself look a complete fool. I would name change if I were you.

Fish

I think we've spoken before. Did you see the programme last night about trans-children? Did it provide you with any comfort? I hope it did, but of course the burning question for parents with trans-children is are they aren't they.

Datun I've not long name changed but we have spoken on these threads a fair few times now.

I watched the documentary with tears of relief streaming down my face.

Finally there seems to be something more neutral that doesn't tell us all that without hormone treatment our children will commit suicide.

I'm going to watch it with my child later today and see what they think.

Fish

Brilliant post fish. I think that sums everything up perfectly.

@fishinawetsuitandflippers, you are glorious. Spot on, and with a brilliant ability to explain your thoughts coherently.

@fishinawetsuitsndflippers, I watched it too, with a similar reaction. So many of my husbands thoughts and behaviours have been whipped up into a frenzy by this current narrative, the internet and councillors. I can't imagine how hard it must be for you and your child to navigate your way though all the well intentioned, but less informed propaganda. for you.

I'm so glad fish, although the inevitable backlash from the trans-activists has already started. I hope when you watch it with your DC that the lines of communication continue to flow, or flow even more freely.

For me, having a parent of a trans-child contribute to these threads in the supportive and analytical way that you do really helps. Yet again, it's trying to sort out the different strands of transgenderism.

The bloody activists, through their violent campaigning, have effectively left people like you with no support and deserve our anger.

As ever @fishinawetsuitandflippers, you are excellent at disentangling the concerns from the hyperbole. I hope your child finds the programme reassuring too.

I think you're a brilliant mum

Fish

Can I ask a question? If there was an organisation that was like guides, same activities but mixed sex, would you feel it was acceptable to steer your child in that direction? Explaining that the girls in guides have a different set of needs and a different life ahead of them. That their lives will take a different trajectory, one facing sexism and inequality and different physical health issues quite possibly , whether they want it or not, and that this is something which your child will not. That because these needs are common to girls they deserve to be allowed to be with just other girls sometimes.

In real life, my heart would hurt for a male child who felt he wanted to be with girls, play with them, enjoy his preferences freely and couldn't. I would be supportive of his freedom to express himself however he likes, and have friendship groups that he wanted. But compassion for what girls will experience in their lives, for the numerous common factors they share with each other but do not share with either boys or trans girls, means that I think they deserve the right to be by themselves. Just sometimes.

When you write that you feel male children should be accepted into guides, it makes me wonder - is there any circumstance in which you feel it is appropriate for biological girls to have groups or spaces just for them?

I understand this is intensely personal for you and so I hope this doesn't appear aggressive. I understand if you don't wish to answer.

This is only about girls right to play within a girl only environment for a single hour out of the 168 hours in the week.

I am heartbroken that guides changed and hid that this guidance for years. That is worse not better. Certainly our local leaders talk about being girls only, so these ladies were never asked about adding boys. I have sent my children on trips, that I would not have consented to had I understood the truth but the guide company lied to us parents and certainly to my local leaders.

Unsure whether to wait until a local boy joins to leave or to leave now....There are plenty of cheaper unisex clubs after all. Going to chat to my local volunteers and see what they say.

All this fuss over ONE hour a week :(

Then the other 167 hours of the week my girls can play with whoever wants to play with them. 4yo DD bf is a boy. We are not anti boys....just so sick of boys wishes always being centred ahead and above of the girls.

venus I don't understand your criticism of my analogy to a no-whites allowed club. In a no-men-allowed club, it is the privileged that are being denied access, as it would be in a no-whites-allowed club. So why isn't it correct to compare a no-whites club to a no-men club?

Non-white people in the UK are massively more disempowered wrt white people than women are wrt men.

There must surely therefore be a need to allow non-white people space to empower themselves without white people running in and telling them what to do? And yet no non-whites-only clubs exist.

So why are race segregated clubs (there to support the minority disempowered race) absolutely NOT allowed, when sex segregated clubs (there to support the disempowered sex) are apparently a valuable resource?

Is it not because sexism has a special place in our society?

So you think it should be forbidden for girls to EVER have a girls only group?

It should not be allowed under ANY circumstances? There must be some extraordinarily compelling reason to want to prevent girls from being with each other without the presence of a male.

I assume women too. What is so unbearable about the idea that girls and women might want to group themselves, on occasion?