AIBU to think ff babies sleep better than bf babies?

[Scrumptiouscrumpets]

It seems blatantly obvious to me that ff babies sleep better than bf babies. Just take a look at the sleep board on here, the bad sleepers under a year old are more or less all bf (and many of the older ones too!). Yet nobody officially seems to acknowledge this, all bf info I can find on the Internet states that bf mums actually get more sleep than ff mums because it takes more time to make up a bottle etc. Well maybe that's true during the first three months but definitely not later on when the ff babies start sleeping in long stretches while the bf babies start to wake more and more often!
I have a 4 month old who is ebf and I love bf, but I am seriously considering switching to formula.
Am I just imagining things? Are all these bf blogs right and bf mums actually get more sleep?

I didnt breastfeed, never attempted to. Im pregnant again with dc2 and wont attempt either.

I ve been put off the whole thing from being a small child so i couldnt bring myself to even attempt it. Breastfeeding to me was un natural yet bottle feeding was natural

speaknowords its even Worse in Ireland: 52% leave hospital BF which drops to 34% by 2 weeks and then less than 5% by 6 months.

I was put off bf by a friend's mother wapping her gigantic boobs with engorged giant areolas out when I was an early teen. But by the time I had my own son aged 30, I'd got over that and nct information convinced me it was worth giving it a try. There is a bit of a breastfeeding stereotype which is boobs out, militant earth mother doesn't wear make up or look after herself. Obviously this is a tiny fraction of all bf mothers but I think it does put some off. Pro-bf publicity rarely shows a lip glossed, hair straightened young slim stylish mother and this could put some off. Also people don't notice those who bf discreetly - but those who do it ostentatiously or awkwardly are probably more noted by others who end up not wanting to 'be like that'.
We mothers are our own worst enemies and pigeonhole ourselves.
Also some of those that never try are those who have had breast reductions, mastectomies, need to take medications that are contraindicated for bf or can't for another medical reason with them or the baby.

Bobbiedog what was it that put you off?

I had 3 formula feed babies who sleept very well from day 1. I now have a 4th dc. He is 5 month old baby and the only one I have managed to breastfeed. He is a terrible sleeper. Up 4 times a night for half hour stretches.

Wham

As a child i had adults in my life who made it very clear that breasts were sexual and a private part of your body.

Two of my aunts breastfed (i cant remember them doing) and my mum has often told me how one of those aunts were always getting her tits out and once when she was moving house she breastfed infront of the men who were doing her house move. My mum and my nan was very disgusted at this and my mum is still disgusted by it to this day.

Im 29 and have been brought up in an era were porn was very acceptable, breast implants were seen as appealing, page 3 was very popular etc etc.

Also i have a family member who made some inappropriate remarks about womens bodies (and still does) and i just felt i couldnt see him or be able to feed my child infront of him (its my step father so quite a close relative) if i was breastfeeding.

Even now as an adult i feel very uncomfortable if i see someone breastfeed which tbh is very rare as i hardly know anyone who breastfeeds.

I agree that every fact should be present before giving birth so we can make informed choices. When I felt like giving up bf (many times) thinking about all the benefits to the dc's kept me going.

It does make me sad that those who breastfeed are described as earth hippy weirdo breastapo mothers. It makes me sad that I can't feel confident feeding in public. It makes me sad when I'm in a store and ask if there's a place to feed my baby so I don't offend anyone and I get directed to a disabled toilet.

Also, just because I'm feeding successfully now, doesn't mean it wasn't hard. 3 dc's, and first 6 - 8 weeks were hell for all. Cracked bleeding nipples, mastitis, tongue tie...lots of hard work. Maybe that's part of the problem? If we were more honest about how hard it can be. How mentally exhausting it is when they feed all the time, you feel like there is no milk at all! But it's all normal.

Unfortunately debates like these, breastfeeders can't really say how they really feel without getting flamed. A formula feeder above described breastfeeding as unnatural to her. We couldn't say that the other way around, as we have to constantly be aware of those who physically could not breastfeed.

Yes, that must be very very hard. But that is what formula was created for. For those who physically couldn't feed, and we stop babies dying.

Now it seems the norm. The better choice for our first world country. Why breastfeed when there's a good alternative?

I don't know the answer to improving breastfeeding rates. I just wish we could honestly discuss the many benefits of breastfeeding without causing upset to the 3-5% that physically cannot feed.

"I just wish we could honestly discuss the many benefits of breastfeeding without causing upset to the 3-5% that physically cannot feed."

I think it's far more upsetting to those who freely chose not to breastfeed.

They only have one option - to believe that how a baby is fed doesn't really matter, hence may be utterly hacked off with any discussion where the value of breastfeeding is celebrated/explored.

gluteustothemaximus I am one of those that cannot breastfeed. This is because I take lifesaving medication and the effect of that medication on a baby if they breastfed is not known. I am not upset or offended by a discussion of the benefits of breastfeeding. A bit jealous and an irrational guilt maybe because of course I want what is best for my children. The comments that do upset me are the judgemental ones about ff mothers choosing to use "harsher" methods such as CC and sleep training.

This thread has turned into a very interesting and factual discussion about breastfeeding benefits and campaigns. Something which I don't think would upset those you fear it would. Hth.

This is a really interesting thread.

I only have anecdotal evidence to go on and based on my friends/the people I know, breastfed babies are just as likely to sleep through the night as formula fed babies. Several of the ff babies/toddlers I know at the moment are not good sleepers actually.

My sister and I have toddlers the same age. My breastfed baby started sleeping through the night at 3 months. Her 2 year old still wakes for a bottle (or 2 or 3) in the night.

I think that when babies are very young, a lot of this can come down to luck. There were things I did to encourage DD to sleep through such as feeding her as much as possible during the day, making the room really dark, playing white noise, having a nap routine so that she wasn't overtired. Also, if she did ever wake in the night later on due to teething etc, I would cuddle her/sing to her rather than feeding her so that we didn't re-establish night time feeding. Whereas I know my sister was so tired that she would always reach for a bottle immediately at night wake ups.

I think ff lends itself to parent led, scheduled approaches to feeding, but it doesn't have to.

The aspects of ff which are presented as a strength, i.e., the ability to measure and regulate feeds, can sometimes also be a disadvantage. Breastfeeding lends itself to intimate and fluid relationship with a mum and baby whose bodies are working in sync with each other. I wish midwives encouraged ff mums to see that they can keep many of the good things about breastfeeding by feeding responsively and on demand, also doing skin to skin with their babies beyond the first few weeks. With ready made formula it's doable.

I feel sad when I hear someone talk about feeling intimidated out of trying to breastfeed. Makes an utter mockery of the concept that we have free choice when it comes to feeding. It's not fair on babies or on women.

"There is a bit of a breastfeeding stereotype which is boobs out, militant earth mother doesn't wear make up or look after herself. Obviously this is a tiny fraction of all bf mothers but I think it does put some off. "

Yes, because mothers should be well groomed, made up, fashionable, and 'discreet' about how they breastfeed, shouldn't they?

Maybe the problem isn't 'earth mothers' or scruffy women putting others off breastfeeding, but the fact our culture is so utterly fucked up that mothers are judged in this way.

Scrumptious - i've co-slept in a normal bad with just a bed rail (like a toddler rail) on the end - worth considering? I've co-slept with mine until she was 2 and then she moved to her own bed.

Minifingerz - I think the 'problem' (or rather what makes the debate difficult) is not mothers who made a free choice to ff but mothers who want to believe they made a free choice and want to defend that. When in fact they were not given the tools necessary to make that free and informed choice in the first place and thats not their fault.
Also beyond the health benefits for mother and child, bf can be an amazingly empowering experience and has fantastic emotional benefits for mother and child which need to be re-stated. Even if it had no health benefits the benefits overall are still huge.

Also beyond the health benefits for mother and child, bf can be an amazingly empowering experience and has fantastic emotional benefits for mother and child which need to be re-stated. Even if it had no health benefits the benefits overall are still huge.

I totally agree with this.

Breastfeeding empowered me.

Definitely minifingerz,

I'm starting to feel self-conscious feeding my 9 month old out and about (he's really long and almost walking so you could mistake him for 1ish, but even if he was 1 so what?)

I'm going to carry on though Indiscreetly and with no make up

Minifingerz I didn't mean to say how Bf mothers should or shouldn't be - but I do think that the visible face of bf tends to not cover all 'tribes' (for want of a better word) of mothers and of course naturally we tend to follow examples of those most similar to us.
The example of the young person I gave was perhaps a few non-represented types in the often quite dated literature on breastfeeding.
The mothers in formula adverts are quite the opposite to those on bf posters?
Wow imagine a glossy tv ad for bf?! That's what's missing to normalise it/increase uptake. But where would the funds come from?

That's an interesting idea WhamBam! There are campaigns trying to make things like 5 a day, mammographies, vaccinations attractive, but I've never come across a magazine or tv ad for bf. It would be a very effective step towards changing people's ideas about bf!

Also, just because I'm feeding successfully now, doesn't mean it wasn't hard. 3 dc's, and first 6 - 8 weeks were hell for all. Cracked bleeding nipples, mastitis, tongue tie...lots of hard work. Maybe that's part of the problem? If we were more honest about how hard it can be.

I think the key is honesty.

I was very prepared for what breastfeeding would be like because of MN; NHS classes didn't tell you the downsides of BF. Because of MN I expected the cracked, bleeding nipples, the engorgement pain, the cluster feeding and the stress about the weight loss and slow weight gain, so when all that happened it didn't put me off. I have a high pain threshold and don't need much sleep. I don't have other DC so I can spend hours and hours sitting feeding in just my pants. People who don't have all of that and struggle, I just don't think BF is worth it.

I also, luckily, had fantastic, no-pressure, community midwives come out after (a bad, traumatic) birth who helped me with latch but made clear that they had a zero tolerance to pain and I could stop if I wanted to and they'd help me with mixed or FF. Having the non-judgemental support meant I could choose to continue BF, rather than resentfully feel forced.

I think it's a bit like that study with the pain button at the dentist; just knowing the button is there and you can bail if you need to means you can tolerate a little bit more discomfort.

If new mothers were educated more about the reality, and supported in their options and choices without judgement, and without sly little digs about SIDS, controlled crying, dummies and parent-led schedules with very transparent undertones of "you're selfish and not putting your baby first", then breastfeeding rates would increase, IMO.

And it's not just those who "choose" to FF who find these digs offensive. Those of us who EBF but have a bit of empathy with other mothers and the appreciate that people struggle with different things for all sorts of reasons that matter to them, are also offended. Me.

The attitude puts people off. You're doing more harm to breastfeeding rates than good.

It's a shame that whenever anyone is trying to provide some positive information about breastfeeding it is seen as 'digs' or having undertones. I really don't think it is the case. We need to stop 'fighting' each other and accept factual information and other people's views without feeling attacked or offended or generally seeing it as an opportunity to turn the matter into a debate when it is not.

I would like to know why some eastern European countries have such a great bf rate when England and for instance France are so 'poor'. Is it the people? Is it the government? Is it the maternity benefits (not conductive to bf in France but pretty good here)?

It is about sharing facts but yes of course it is also a lot about practical support and honesty.

It's a shame that whenever anyone is trying to provide some positive information about breastfeeding it is seen as 'digs' or having undertones. I really don't think it is the case.

You don't? You should reread some of the posts on this thread! They are digs, proper, nasty little digs. I think denying that they are is gaslighting people, actually.

I think maybe Mn isn't an easy forum to discuss bf/ff as people do seem to find offense quite easily. It's maybe now part of human nature on Internet forums LOL we all feel like jumping at each other's throats so quickly. Is it because we don't dare do it in real life anymore? :) I'm not excluding myself from this tendency btw.

My DD was ff and she was a terrible sleeper up until she was 8 months! She's also tiny, her BF friend who's the same age is a lot bigger than her and slept better than her!

I think the comments about CC etc are unnecessary and divisive. I don't see how they're helpful.

I just think that breastfeeding should be seen as the norm, not as something better or best. Then there should also be more actual skilled help and advice for breastfeeding women, easily accessible, up to date and consistent.

To be honest, we could all do with less judgements on either side for any choices on parenting.

Sometimes though, while just explaining our opinions on our own parenting choices, doesn't mean that we're criticising others (unless of course posters are deliberately criticising and this is obvious).

I mean things like, not getting sleep, asking for help about a baby who won't sleep, and lots of posters explaining how CC worked for them, and they should try it. If the OP comes back and says they don't want to try CC, it doesn't mean they are being critical of the ones that have. Personally I wouldn't try it, but if it works for others, that's great. It's really unfair to say that the CC parent is being cruel, or that the parent who won't try CC is being unreasonable.

If someone doesn't want to go out for the evening due to breastfeeding, and they are advised to give formula as a one off, and go out and enjoy yourself, the OP replying that they don't want to give formula isn't actually criticising those that do FF. Just that they don't want to. It's unfair to say that the one BF, and doesn't want to FF, has a problem with FF parents choice to feed. Or that the BF parent is being unreasonable for not trying FF.

There are so many challenges to go through. So many choices for what we feed, if we co-sleep, how we wean, when we potty train, when they go to nursery, if they go to nursery, when they start school, if they start school (home educated), whether they eat junk/how much, whether they have too much screen time, too much TV, what time they go to bed....just too much to go through, and too many judgements to make on either side, when all that really matters is we love our children, and we're all doing our very best within whatever means we have.

Life is hard enough as it is. Last thing, when parenting is already so tough, is pressure from each other, when we're all parents, somehow you'd think we'd have a lot more compassion and be building each other up, whatever our choices, and feel free to share our own opinions without shame for our own choices or shaming others for theirs, or feeling defensive or guilty about choices we have made.