To think trying to close down a library/archive because you don't like a event is just not on

[thecraftyfox]

Yes, it's trans related. If that gets your hackles up, stop reading now.

The small but very important Working Class Movement Library in Salford has been around for ages and does what it does brilliantly on a teeny budget and wth predominantly volunteers. It's such a valuable resource for historians and well, anybody interested in things like the Suffragettes, the Union movement etc.

In February they're hosting a talk by Julie Bindel on growing up and coming out as a lesbian in 1970s North East England. Julie Bindel wrote this article in 2004 which states that transwomen are not the same as women. www.theguardian.com/world/2004/jan/31/gender.weekend7 Since then she has been harrassed and hounded for it.

As a result the WCML is being bombarded online by transactivists in an attempt to punish them. They are giving them dreadful reviews despite never going there, attempting to cause financial damage by trying to stop funding and promotion of the place and getting people to call them. If you don't like it, don't attend. The talk is not about transpeople, it's about Julie's life and work which has been enormously important for many women, especially her work with women who have been abused. I can't understand why a small library can't host this event without being subjected to such vitriol and harrassment. Am I being unreasonable to think that if you don't like what somebody writes or says, you don't start a campaign of harrassment and act like a spoilt child. www.facebook.com/wcmlibrary/ the comments and posts are just unbelievably spiteful.

As I said, Bindel is arrogant and condescending, but that doesn't mean we should delete her from history. We should shine a light on her and challenge her bigotry.

Why is it more than slightly rich coming from a lesbian?

How is she a bigot? I don't understand this.

To me a bigot is a person who prefers one set of people over another, for example English over immigrants.

Why should bigotry be assigned to those who have sexual preferences?

I've signed the petition, and I'll try and make it to the talk.

Heaven forfend that a woman makes her case forcefully. Because it might look like she may be confident about being right. Which means she's arrogant of course, because she's a woman, and how dare she.

Bindel is the type of woman movements need because she gets people talking. I'm glad she's not backing down over this!

And she's maybe one of the reasons why... wait, how many women call themselves feminists nowadays?

That's what people do non platform and close down any place that's dosent agree with them

This is the biphobic article here

I believed then, and I believe now, that if bisexual women had an ounce of sexual politics, they would stop sleeping with men.

sooooo... don't tell lesbians to have sex with transwomen, but it's fine to tell bi women not to sleep with men.

Not so much biphobic as bi erasure, which is a major issue at the moment. We're either lesbians in denial or straight people trying to sound cool.

I'm bi, and I don't think that article is biphobic at all.

She's pointing out (rightly IMO) that it has been extremely fashionable at times for young women to identify as bi and it was massively "touristy". Of all the "bi" women I knew from uni, none of them have made lives with women. They all settled down with men, got married before there were civil partnerships or equal marriage, and had the 2.4 children. That's fine, but they're hardly experiencing discrimination on the basis of their LGB status.

She's not saying that all bi women are deluded, or playing at it or bisexuality doesn't exist. She's saying that as a political act they could choose not to sleep with men. It's not necessarily a view I agree with, but I think calling her "biphobic" is a stretch.

I hate this. It's a library. It will contain information you don't like. You can disagree with it.

I don't understand why the no-platformers aren't asking to speak, rather than shutting Bindel up. Have an argument, preferably a reasoned one, but don't tell others what they're allowed to hear. If we closed down libraries because they made available ideas we disagree with, we'd have no libraries. Get an argument, write a book, make a speech. Don't bully others into silence.

Yes, Hermione I get that as well. I'm bisexual too. I might, just might, live with an asexual man, but I think I'd prefer, if I were to live with someone again, that it would be with a woman.

Obviously, a woman who wasn't lesbian all her post puberty life.

Get an argument, write a book, make a speech. Don't bully others into silence

Absolutely this.

I was actually quite 'lesbian'. I'm sometimes still surprised I ended up with a man... 😅

I sometimes am a bit when people think me being bi just means I once snogged an other woman...
I used to say a 'bit bi'. But I meant that I like men a little and women a lot 😉

We're all different... and that's great. Not 'odd'.

But I did experience discrimination and assault because of my LGBT status. Just throwing that out there. I know, some people may not believe that's possible but it definitely is...

She's not saying that all bi women are deluded, or playing at it or bisexuality doesn't exist. She's saying that as a political act they could choose not to sleep with men. It's not necessarily a view I agree with, but I think calling her "biphobic" is a stretch

I tend to agree, but I'm pretty excusively het, so my agreement is probably irrelevant.

However, there was a strong political lesbian feminist movement in the 70s where sexual preference was also seen as a political act. Lesbianism as a political choice was one that many of my friends made; I can remember feeling very "non-feminist" by sleeping with men. For me, it's actually still a conundrum.

I just hope it's easier for the next generation of straight women now in their 20s & 30s. BUt I kind of get what people like Bindel, Andrea Dworkin, and Catherine McKinnon say. It's very very difficult to square heterosexuality and any kind of radical (as opposed to liberal or "choice" feminism) feminism. The contradictions are often very challenging.

But then Marx was very good on the power for change that recognition of contraction & paradox can be.

But would they really want that?

ME saying: I'm bisexual but I choose to be a lesbian... wouldn't that make homosexuality look like a choice, which is the last thing anybody actually trying to improve the lives of homosexuals (especially young ones) should have wanted?

Me. Not ME

I've spent the last couple of days reading the threads on the events page. It's been hugely educational and made me think about things i've never thought about.

I never came down on one side or the other, i'm still not sure i do.

What i've struggled with most is the sheer hatred being displayed, predominantly on one side, though both sides are guilty of it. It's awful to read.

noeffingidea It all depends on what you think 'having sex' is. I think that it means penetration. Which is the heterosexual idea of sex and that this is seen as normal.

Some women who could be bisexual, do choose to be lesbian. She is saying that some women do have choices that they could make.

But what I am really against is the attempt to close down the library. That is absolutely terrible behavior and should never ever have happened.

YANBU. Its ridiculous, but sadly is the case for anything even vaguely related to trans. I get that this is not about trans stuff but the protesting is because of stuff she said at some stage..its pathetic to behave like this because you do not like a view someone holds.

Unfortunately its to be expected. When the NSPCC cannot discuss trans kids without being bombarded, whilst the BBC cannot air a program about the dangers of puberty blockers without being threatened...you know its really fucked up.

"Or is it the lesbianism that is the issue given that it excludes males?"

Don't be ridiculous. Lesbianism is NOT ALLOWED to exclude males these days or the lesbian in question is branded a bigot. Lesbians need to accept males as potential partners as its whats inside the persons head that counts, not their sex. Sex is irrelevant now. The only way you are 'allowed' to reject males now is to be totally asexual.