To think trying to close down a library/archive because you don't like a event is just not on

[thecraftyfox]

Yes, it's trans related. If that gets your hackles up, stop reading now.

The small but very important Working Class Movement Library in Salford has been around for ages and does what it does brilliantly on a teeny budget and wth predominantly volunteers. It's such a valuable resource for historians and well, anybody interested in things like the Suffragettes, the Union movement etc.

In February they're hosting a talk by Julie Bindel on growing up and coming out as a lesbian in 1970s North East England. Julie Bindel wrote this article in 2004 which states that transwomen are not the same as women. www.theguardian.com/world/2004/jan/31/gender.weekend7 Since then she has been harrassed and hounded for it.

As a result the WCML is being bombarded online by transactivists in an attempt to punish them. They are giving them dreadful reviews despite never going there, attempting to cause financial damage by trying to stop funding and promotion of the place and getting people to call them. If you don't like it, don't attend. The talk is not about transpeople, it's about Julie's life and work which has been enormously important for many women, especially her work with women who have been abused. I can't understand why a small library can't host this event without being subjected to such vitriol and harrassment. Am I being unreasonable to think that if you don't like what somebody writes or says, you don't start a campaign of harrassment and act like a spoilt child. www.facebook.com/wcmlibrary/ the comments and posts are just unbelievably spiteful.

Purely out of interest, what is with the I, Q and A at the end of the LGBT acronym? Were all LGBT people consulted on this or were the letters simply plonked onto the end on a few people's say so?

non-men

So... they think it's alright to define feminity as anything simply not masculine. Do men get to keep their 'gender identity' or are they simply called non-women?

Anyhow, twiggy:
I'm not working class (not that there's anything wrong with it), I'm not a lesbian and I'm not extremely passionate about the trans or anti-trans movement. And I really dislike Bindel.

But imo this is simply a matter of principle. A library shouldn't be threatened like this because they chose to invite a somewhat controversial speaker. That's how discourse happens... the world isn't one big safe space.

I'm not a fan of Bindel, as a bisexual woman. She still has a right to share her life experiences. Her talk is not about trans or bisexual people. And even if it was, a difference of opinion does not qualify as hate speech: if that were the case then every week, churches, mosques, any religious organisation would be giving hate speeches as they exclude anyone who isn't a member of their congregation.

Why does no one care when men talk about women being cuntscum and TERFs, etc? Why do women always have to shut up?

Horation nah, men still get to be men of course! It's just women who are apparently not entitled to our identities because some men feel like appropriating womanhood. Men and non-men, non-men of course being lesser beings.

It's a bit like human, non-human... isn't it?

You can donate to the library. I hope some people do. They need support.

There's another less trafficked thread about this over on Feminism. If you'd care to sign a petition of support for Bindel's right to speak, here it is:

www.change.org/p/working-class-movement-library-support-the-working-class-movement-library?source_location=minibar

Purely out of interest, what is with the I, Q and A at the end of the LGBT acronym?

Intersex, queer, and agender I think. Often with a + on the end for any labels they have missed.

Nothing to do with sexuality any more, just about labelling feelings.

Well, asexuality is a sexuality, isn't it...?

To go back to this from the Green Party

As the hosts of the event, the WCML are in a position of power in choosing who attends and therefore made the choice to invite a speaker who victimises marginalised groups of the community. They are therefore wrong to imply that they have been “victimised” by receiving criticism, and need to listen to the people who have been hurt by the choices they make and at the very least address the concerns raised rather than ignore them

actually I think it's really interesting as it exemplifies how identity politics has pushed out class/economic politics to the degree it has (such that the left is in tatters, which to me is a scary thing, with the world how it is at the moment).

So the Greens think the library is "in a position of power". Well, only in so far as they are a group of working class people organising collectively to celebrate and preserve wc history. One of the points if wc history is that the only real power wc people have is through collective action. So it seems the Green party don't like that. Interesting. Showing their true colours I think.

And JB doesn't "victimise" people, she says things people disagree with. Sounds like the Green's spokesperson has swallowed the identity politics/victimhood/safe space/hurt feelings random spiel generator whole.

I think Jonathon Pie's Trump is relevant here, if anyone's interested. Warning - sweary.

m.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=3&v=GLG9g7BcjKs

sorry, JP's Trump rant, that should read.

So is our history to be completely erased now?

There are gay men who I don't agree with, but I'm not going to no platform them.

Can someone point out to me an article that Bindel was against bisexuality?

For me LGB is about sexual preferences that are seen as 'deviant' from the norm, i.e heterosexual. And these people were punished for doing so.

Trans to me is a wholly separate issue. It has nothing to do with sexuality.

I've signed the petition. No platforming, in my opinion, is fascism.

Yes, asexuality is a sexual preference.

I've signed the petition and made a donation, I hope others will too.

In the Green Party's non-men debacle, they seriously allowed someone to speak who described him/herself as a person who
Identifies as a woman
And
Presents as a man (beard and all, iirc)

The problem the Green Party faced was that various debates at their party conference were being g do.insted by (biological) males. They wanted other voices, but instead of just telling the men to STFU for a bit.

But we can never tell the menz to be quiet, can we?

Being dominated by males

Goodness knows what my phone was thinking!

elendon
It was a response to: Nothing to do with sexuality any more, just about labelling feelings.

I just meant to say that the a may stand for asexual, which is a sexual... orientation. (Or well, the lack of it, I guess).

And the I may stand for intersex. Which, as far as I know, has nothing to do with feelings at all.

Elendon only in the sense that atheism is a religion. In other words, it isn't. It's just an absence of sexuality.
I suppose I could be described as asexual (at least now) seeing as I have absolutely no interest in having sex. However I fail to see why I need to be represented in an interest group. Not having or wanting sex isn't generally a problem that requires any kind of activism, though of course it might present problems for some people in specific circumstances, eg an abusive marriage.

no

Well, I imagine it might make finding a partner quite difficult. And some people could accuse an asexual person of actually not even being asexual but simply using it as a cover for some kind of perversion? Idk. What are your thoughts on this?

I'm actually kind of surprised some people put the I for intersex in the trans umbrella...

Non-men . . .

In apartheid-era South Africa I believe the larger part of the population were called non-white.

andre

Idk. But it implies that men are the norm whereas women are just a deviation of male.. It reminds me of how the ancient Greeks saw women...

I know a woman who is asexual. Never being interested in sex at all, or masturbation, she doesn't understand sexual feelings at all and has no wish to ever marry. She says she feels nothing in common with LGB people. She is single, and if people ask her why she isn't dating etc, she just says she isn't interested. People might thing she is unusual, but she does not get any hassle, apart from her parents who want her to get married and have babies.

And intersex is a physical condition, nothing to do with sexuality. I know it has an impact on your sexuality in practice, but so does being a paraplegic.

I do think the LGBTQIIAA alphabet soup, is basically getting to - put all the "freaks and wierdos" together.

I do think it's very much a pull all the freaks and weirdos together. Or, everything that isn't white and gender conforming.

As I said, I really don't know why intersex is in there...? But if it helps intersex people then that's something, I guess? I mean, so many were forcefully subjected to gender reassignment surgery as babies... and awareness of these issues certainly can't be bad.