To wonder if this discipline was excessive of my mother?

[PineappleFwitters]

My mother always physically punished us as children. It's what she grew up with and what she knew, but I think it happened more because she lost her temper than because I was badly behaved.

Once, when I was about 12, I was keeping an eye on my brother but also reading my copy of Mandy (yes it was that long ago!) Before I knew what was happening my brother, who was probably about 9 months at the time, rolled off the bed and fell into the (carpeted) floor. He was not injured (as the bed was fairly low) but he cried, and my mother came storming into the room, slapped me and tore my magazine into pieces.

Now I don't deny that I should've been keeping a closer eye on my brother, but was her behaviour not a tad OTT? Again, I think she lost her temper and didn't know how to deal with it. I don't hold a grudge against her but I do wonder if it's why, even today, I get easily annoyed with her. Part of me is worried that I might wind up acting like that with DC, but fortunately so far so good.

Anyway not sure why I'm posting this really, maybe to see if my feelings are justified or if her behaviour was excessive.

But not of your theoretical self / dp / dm, if it happened under their watch?

Can you not see the double standard?

It sounds weird to say it but, in context, I think that ripping the comic was spiteful, 70s or not. Also a child of 70s and a smack on the legs was given to me now and again.
Ironically, my wartime generation parents both intervened when a sibling 's partner (also of wartime gen parents) started smacking their child in the late 80s. "Cruel and absolutely no need" were the words they used. Sibling's partner stopped.

Bertrand so how would you punish your dp if they got distracted by their iPad and the baby fell off the bed? Would you confiscate the iPad for a week?

If not, why not? As I see it the adult is ultimately responsible for all children in their care so if one has an accident while left with another older child the adult is responsible for the accident. The adult should not leave a baby in an unsafe situation, which includes on a bed with another kid supposedly watching them.

Sadly I don't think times have changed as much as we think, particularly for some. I work with teenagers and one of the saddest things I heard last term was a boy say to me "do you want to know something really weird? My dad has never hit me". There were 2'other kids there who agreed with him that it was very strange and were quite taken aback by my insistence that that should be a basic expectation of parents.

crazy

That's awful.:(

I'd certainly take the Mandy away as a punishment (preferably calmly, of course. But if you're scared, in shock...).

I'd probably be tempted to shred the Mandy, and if something like that (not doing what one is supposed to do because of reading/the iPad) was a usual occurrence I might shred the Mandy. Probably wouldn't destroy an iPad, tbh...

Yeah my mum had a quick temper, and was pretty handy with her hands. Her mother had been the same. My dad was a shouter but I don't recall him ever hitting us. Mums temper never lasted long, she'd always apologise afterwards.

My mum would never, ever admit it now though. She'd breeze over it with "oh you got a smack on the hand every now and then, that's all". Yeah that's true of when we were tiny, but as preteens/teenagers it was a different story. If we were cheeky to her (as teens are) she would absolutely lose the plot.

But she's great with DD, and she has been massively supportive all my adult life, so honestly I can't say I hold it against her. If I think about it too much I feel sad/angry sometimes but on the whole I've tried to put it behind me. I do however struggle to understand how she could lose her temper and slap her children like that though. I'd never raise my hand to DD. Never even been tempted.

She tells me off for telling off my DD now! "Oh, don't tell her off, she's only wee..."

She'd be absolutely fucking horrified if I smacked DD!

But not of your theoretical self / dp / dm, if it happened under their watch?

Can you not see the double standard?"

If anybody allowed my baby to fall when in their charge because they were distracted by their book, IPad or copy of the Mandy I would be furious.

I think it was excessive and it wouldn't surprise me if it is part of the reason you're impatient with your mother even today.

I think I hold grudges towards my parents for excessive discipline as a child. My parents were fine (and generous and supportive ) most of the time, but I think on some level I find it hard to let go of the times that I was punished (physically or by destruction of cherished possessions) for things I didn't do. I remember one particular instance of my mother hitting me repeatedly until I admitted to something I hadn't done. Unbeknownst to me, she sought counselling to stop her lashing out at me, so on an objective level I think she deserves forgiveness, but I am very difficult with my parents and easily annoyed by them (in a way that I'm not with others), so I can only assume that I haven't really resolved certain feelings.

Bertrand, the baby wouldn't have fallen because the other person was distracted, the baby would have fallen because you left them in an unsafe place. With a child in charge. Imo the only person to be furious with would be yourself.

This also seems to imply you'd punish the child out of fury, rather than discipline - exactly what many posters have taken issue with.

I wouldnt take the iPad from the 12 year old but I would remind them of the importance of keeping watch on a small baby. Howeve knowing how bloody addictive screens are, I would have asked the 12 year old to put the screen down while I did whatever it was while leaving them with baby. Or take baby with me as I did with PFB.

I think it's perfectly reasonable to ask a 12 year old to watch a baby for a while. As I said. I think 12 year olds can do stuff.

Exactly, Believe.

Bertrand, not saying 12 year olds can't do stuff (though not sure I'd describe looking after a baby as 'doing stuff') The 12 year old might even do a good job of watching an infant 9/10.

However, if an accident befell an infant who had been left in a spot where they could easily roll or fall, by the parent, and in the care of a 12 year old also left with a beloved/distracting item, it is the parent's fault. And therefore pretty outrageous imo to punish the 12 year old, beyond the upset they would already feel at the baby's upset, mother's worry etc, and a talk about how and why it happened.

"However, if an accident befell an infant who had been left in a spot where they could easily roll or fall, by the parent, and in the care of a 12 year old also left with a beloved/distracting item, it is the parent's fault"

Well, I suppose it would be the parent's fault that they had raised a 12 year old with no sense of responsibility and no self control........

Bertrand, that too...

But you were supposed to be watching your brother and you weren't and he fell.

It's not a child's responsibility to take care or watch over another child. It's not fair to put that responsibility on a child.

OP's mother's reaction was borne out of her own guilt.

You know I find it utterly shocking that people think a NT 12 year old couldn't/shouldn't be trusted to look after a younger sibling.

Not all 12 year olds are mature. That doesn't mean that their parents have failed. Some of them are easily distracted at that age. In any case, they are not babysitters. I think that if you leave a baby with an older child, you cannot expect to absolve yourself of the actual parental responsibility in that situation. If the baby is hurt then the buck still stops with you, not the older child.

Maybe some (most, even?) 12 year olds are mature and responsible enough to be left in charge of a baby. But if you leave a baby with a 12 year old who isn't mature enough (which they are obviously not if they become distracted) then you have to accept that you, as a parent, have made the wrong call and the responsibility lies with you. I don't think it's right to punish an older child for failing at a task they should not have been asked to do.

Ok I think you've made your point Bertrand. As I've said in several posts previously, I accept I was in the wrong. All I said was that my mother's reaction was OTT, which was the main subject of my OP.

I think your mother was very much in the wrong to hit you. And if she was in an uncontrolled rage when she tore up your comic then I think she was in the wrong there too.

But you said that she just isn't prepared to accept that she was. I honestly think that we can spend a lot of time and energy trying to get the people who have treated us badly in the past to acknowledge it. If the won't there's nothing we can do about it and we need to find a way to defuse it and move forward. Have you got any siblings you can talk about it with?

You just keep going on about it Bert I personally don't think punishing children for genuine mistakes or accidents is great. Natural consequences yes.

I grew up in the 60s and 70s and if I'm honest, most if not almost all of my friends were physically punished at home. I wasn't. And my parents were older than most of my friends' parents.

OP it's excessive by contemporary mores but maybe not so shocking in the context of 1974..?

I had a very nasty stepmother, who was rough as a badger's arse, and what you describe is the kind of thing she'd have done. Verbally abusive if my dad wasn't in the house, to the point I still have nightmares about it 40 years on, so I get why you'd feel a bit haunted by it.

But the past is a foreign country, they do things differently there, etc etc.

OP it's excessive by contemporary mores but maybe not so shocking in the context of 1974..?

Yes, only it was 1988!

Yes it was unreasonable by today's standards, but agree that things were very different in the 60s and 70s. My mother used a wooden hairbrush or slipper to hit us with, and without much provocation as we were good (and terrified!) kids. She was a SAHM with a lovely husband, nice house, 3 well behaved daughters, but she was very unhappy and I have often wondered if it was depression.

Ah I thought OP was talking about the 70s.

That said... I was a teacher in the late 80s and early 90s, and know for sure, some of the kids I taught were still hit at home.

Once, I raised my concerns about a boy in my class who came to school with an impressive black eye and couldn't tell me the same story twice about how he got it. So I asked his sisters and they couldn't keep the story straight, either but one let slip his mother had done something. And I actually got carpeted, by the Head, for asking questions about this child being beaten at home. (Later found out the Mother when called in to school, had told the head she knew where she lived and her windows would be stoved in if she took it any further). When called in to the Head's office to give an account of what had happened at home - the little boy fainted. Then clammed up.

So I know parents still hit kids in the 80s. (I taught many other kids who out and out told me they were hit at home but of course, with management having that attitude there was feck all you could do about it, in those days). I had been trained at college to be vigilant for signs of kids being physically abused at home but was stymied when I tried to get a child help. So attitudes were changing, but only slowly.