More Christmas in-law dilemmas: violent nephew causes Christmas stress

[NewbyNew]

Merry Christmas, Mumsnetters. I hope you can help me with this one.

My DH and I have no children, but we are very close to my two nieces, aged 9 and 11. For the last 5 years, we have held a pre-Christmas Day at our house for my parents, my brother and my two lovely nieces. We make turkey, open presents, and generally have a fun time. The following day, we spend with my in-laws. For many years, we used to visit my MIL and FIL on Christmas Day, but since being widowed, my MIL now goes to my BIL for the Christmas period. The problem is my 5 year old nephew. He is rude and violent. The last times we saw him, he kicked and hit our dog, so we no longer invite them to our house. He has been routinely excluded from nursery. My DH has a difficult relationship with his brother which, he says, he is only maintaining for the sake of his widowed mother.

On Christmas Day, we drive 3 hours to my BIL, spend 3 hours with my BIL SIL, nephew and MIL, and then drive 3 hours home. Their house is too small for us to stay over. My SIL is lovely and spends hours cooking a Christmas lunch for everyone. Over the last two Christmases, my nephew's behaviour has got worse. This Christmas, he threw a book at me and kicked me - that hurt! He also likes shouting at me and sticking his tongue out at me. His parents say "Oh don't do that again", which he ignores. He routinely thumps his mother and pulls her hair. My BIL will not admit there is anything wrong with his behaviour.

My dilemma is this - should I continue making the three hour trek with DH? I expect him to cater for my family at Christmas and we generally see much more of my family, as they live locally. Or should we both apologise and say that the 6 hour round trip on Christmas Day is too long, and that we will do it every other year from now on? Would my MIL get upset?

Your suggestions are very, very welcome. I'm very aware that, not having children ourselves, we may be having unreasonable expectations.

No it is not obvious that such behaviour can not be parented away. None of us know if this child has SN. But this child could also just be very poorly parented.
And no, the OP does not have any responsibility to help raise this boy. There is already a very poor relationship between the adults, so why should she get involved?

Why should she get involved? She doesnt have to, she could just cut him off, but given this is her nephew, that's pretty awful dont you think?

But anyway, are you setiously suggesting that poor parenting can cause a child to consistently behave in this way even when he is not with his parents? Christ if it was that simple his parents could just read a few books and they'd have this child licked!

I feel like im stating the bloody obvious again but purely poor parenting does NOT make kids behave so badly that they are kicked out of school at 5! Children of that age without additional needs are more than capable of holding it together, making friends and responding appropriately regardless of parental input. The fact that this little boy isnt, ever, doing that, is highly indicative of something else being a factor.

This thread is really disheartening. There are a few of you that seem to be determined to make this child's actions someone's fault. And that giving consequences for every action, voluntary or otherwise, is appropriate.
That is incredibly ignorant, and highly disablist.

Your husband's nephew IS your nephew.

Just wanted to augment the voice of reason that is planetary. Even if his parents are not bothering to instil boundaries etc., it's clearly in the financial and practical interests of his nursery and swimming classes to do so. If experienced professionals are unable to help him follow enough of their rules to fit in, there is clearly more to the issue. Presumably, sooner (hopefully) or later his school's SENCO will get involved and his parents will have to face what they might already suspect. It's to be hoped they'll take on board any suggestions about how to support him, one of which may well be to avoid stressful family gatherings until it's clear how best to prepare him and help him manage them.

It is common for people who have very poor relationships with their siblings or BIL/SIL, to have a distant relationship with niece or nephews, especially when they are young. Because you can't see one without the other. That is not cutting her nephew off, it simply means she rarely sees him.

And, the child is 5. Children have to be taught to manage their emotions. 5 is easily young enough not to have learned that.I have worked with kids who have been badly neglected and some at this age if they haven't been taught this by their parents, have not yet learned it.
Although I know this child could have a SN. None of us know which it is. Just as none of us know if how the parents are reacting is dealing with a child with SN, or being neglectful disinterested parents.

Whatever FrancisCrawford.

MoMandaS thankyou.

Nursery and swimming class? Exceptionally good nurseries will be able to deal with children who are being neglected or who have SN. The staff can not have exceptionally good as otherwise they would have been able to meet his needs whatever the cause of his behaviour.

Brasty that is simply not true. If it WAS true, there would be no need for assessment, diagnoses, additional funding, 1-1 care, special schools and EHCPs would there? A shit hot nursery would just take it in their stride...

Or maybe, just maybe, the professionals who care for him have decided that in their experience his needs cannot be met in that setting, hence the exclusion.

Even if the parents WERE neglectful and disinterested, and there were no other issues, school would be able to moderate his behaviour, but they cant either. Nor can swimming class.

Do you believe that SN doesnt exist???

I thought decent nurseries tried to get additional funding for SN?
I worked years ago as a 1-1 in a nursery for a boy with autism.
If I am honest I think you over estimate the ability of a lot of staff. A lot of nurseries are staffed almost exclusively by young women, with basic childcare qualifications. I was one of them and knew a hell of a lot less about SN and about working with neglected children, than I do now. It is a very very poorly paid job. The nursery I worked in would not have been able to cope with a very neglected 5 year old who did not know how to regulate their emotions. IME if it was neglect causing it, behaviour usually dramatically improves after a year of being in school.

Planetarymagic1 you are being massively unfair. Yes of course allowances should be made if the boy does indeed have SN, but not to the extent of expecting people to happily accept being injured or their pets ill-treated. As for 'becoming less disabled', how do you think his (possible) disability is going to be better managed by setting no boundaries and leaving him entirely to his own devices? Children with SN need more reinforcement of how to behave, not less, and that means his parents need to step up to their responsibilities. Some behaviour may be safe to 'ignore' in the hope that it goes away but clearly hitting guests isn't.
I wouldn't blame family members for not wanting to drive for six hours just to spend their Christmas day getting assaulted, but perhaps they'd still be willing if they could at least see that some effort was being made to curb the behaviour before it gets even worse.

Securing funding for SN is nightmarish, and is highly dependent on factors including the SN provision in the school (hes in reception now so these are teachers) the pupil premium level, how many other hugg needs kids theyre trying to accomodate etc. A lot of emphasis is put on the assessment of the child but actually getting that done can take ages (here the wait is 18 months) and in the meantime you're left to flounder, muddle on and face endless judgement.

Pixel calm down. I didnt say that his extended family should be happy to put up with being injured! Or that he doesnt need boundaries. I said that it absolutely isnt the OPs place to make that call!

As for your sweeping generalisation that children with SN need more reinforcement not less, again that simply isnt always appropriate and sometimes the ONLY way is to pre empt the behaviour happening in the first place by managimg triggers, and possibly to the unfamiliar eye, appearing to capitulate.

Does it matter if the boy has SN or not? The OP was asking if she should go out of her way to spend Christmas being attacked by someone else's child (who is not reprimanded or discouraged from doing so). I know that I wouldn't want to (I say this as someone who has spend a number of Christmases being hit/bitten/yelled at by my own child, but that is a different matter).

My boy was 6 this year, he is MUCH less violent, and Christmas was actually nice this year. Good luck OP.

Dear Mumsnetters - thank you so much for your advice and for sharing your experiences. I wasn't expecting so much help, so thanks again.

We've decided to see my BIL and family next year for a weekend in summer, rather than for Christmas. We will stay with a newly re-discovered friend nearby, so we don't have the driving stress. We will try something different as you suggested: going out for walks, softplay, picnics, playground. Then we can revisit at Christmas 2018, if my MIL misses us.

Just a few clarifications: we have asked MIL to stay at Christmas, and other times, but she can no longer cope with stairs. She also wants to see her only grandchild at Christmas. He has never been permanently excluded from nursery, school, or swimming class. He has been sent home around once a month or more, though. My husband and BIL speak every week, and my husband speaks to my MIL twice a week. This is how we get updated on his progress at school, and how his parent are coping. He kicks his dog if it is in the way. But the dog moves into another room when my nephew comes in. He isn't always rude or violent. It is only if he sees adults talking or laughing without him, or if his parents ask him to do something he doesn't want to. Most of the time, he sits alone, talking to himself, watching the ipad or playing with the same toys. He doesn't seem to want anyone else to interact with him.

You have been super-helpful in pointing out what I've overlooked: that his parents are probably aware of his behaviour and on tenterhooks; that what we see as "giving in" to his behaviour, may be just to avoid a huge blow-up, that Christmas Day is so stressful anyway, it isn't the best time to be spending cooped up together. I've also realised that we shouldn't judge our nephew and his parents by the same standards as our other friends and family. It could well be that our nephew has SEN.

Having said that, we do feel a responsibility towards him but, given the poor relationship between my husband and his brother, I doubt we will ever be able to spend enough time together to make a difference. It's sad, really. I was watching my nephew at Christmas, wondering what his life chances will be. He's only five, has no friends, and is routinely in trouble. My BIL and SIL don't take him out for meals because he can't behave "normally" in a restaurant. If there's something we can do to make a difference for him (without giving ourselves a breakdown or our dog more bruises), then I feel that we should do it.

Another problem solved by the Mumsnetters :-) (At least until Xmas 2018)

Just want to agree with most of what planetary said and say that I honk you have the right end of the stick with your last post OP. Your relatives are on a journey and yes - sometimes a snapshot of that can look like they aren't putting boundaries in the right places - but as others have said - sometimes a really stressful time is the worst Noe to expect those boundaries to work. Sorry folks but the fun of SN me as sometimes hongs lion every different on the inside. Fwiw we don't commit to family days where everyone stays in ever nowadays - the reality is that ADHD in the family means a nice trip to a park or a walk with a pub lunch presents many more opportunities for a good outcome (if you want to put it that way ). Also the olds sometimes sit in the cafe of a NT house while we run around and everyone feels they've had a day out together

Also I wanted to say that you mustn't feel you can't help. As this boy gets older a strategi afternoon or one to one may be a wonderful thing in his life. DS1 can be. Eye dogficult in overwhelming situations with lots of people - but one to one for lunch or to cinema/theatre /outing he can be very charismatic and great company

Sorry loads of ridiculous typos - I have the flu

Eye dogficult !!
= 'Can be very difficult'

Oh and 'hongs lion' = 'looks like'