More Christmas in-law dilemmas: violent nephew causes Christmas stress

[NewbyNew]

Merry Christmas, Mumsnetters. I hope you can help me with this one.

My DH and I have no children, but we are very close to my two nieces, aged 9 and 11. For the last 5 years, we have held a pre-Christmas Day at our house for my parents, my brother and my two lovely nieces. We make turkey, open presents, and generally have a fun time. The following day, we spend with my in-laws. For many years, we used to visit my MIL and FIL on Christmas Day, but since being widowed, my MIL now goes to my BIL for the Christmas period. The problem is my 5 year old nephew. He is rude and violent. The last times we saw him, he kicked and hit our dog, so we no longer invite them to our house. He has been routinely excluded from nursery. My DH has a difficult relationship with his brother which, he says, he is only maintaining for the sake of his widowed mother.

On Christmas Day, we drive 3 hours to my BIL, spend 3 hours with my BIL SIL, nephew and MIL, and then drive 3 hours home. Their house is too small for us to stay over. My SIL is lovely and spends hours cooking a Christmas lunch for everyone. Over the last two Christmases, my nephew's behaviour has got worse. This Christmas, he threw a book at me and kicked me - that hurt! He also likes shouting at me and sticking his tongue out at me. His parents say "Oh don't do that again", which he ignores. He routinely thumps his mother and pulls her hair. My BIL will not admit there is anything wrong with his behaviour.

My dilemma is this - should I continue making the three hour trek with DH? I expect him to cater for my family at Christmas and we generally see much more of my family, as they live locally. Or should we both apologise and say that the 6 hour round trip on Christmas Day is too long, and that we will do it every other year from now on? Would my MIL get upset?

Your suggestions are very, very welcome. I'm very aware that, not having children ourselves, we may be having unreasonable expectations.

Planetary of course I dont know, his parents might not be obliged to share it in your opinion but that doesnt mean others have to suffer the consequences of his behaviour either because the parents wont share a possible diagnosis and therefore helping others understand exactly what his issues are and be implementing strategies to manage the behaviour thats not acceptable. Regardless of reasons the behaviour e.g. kicking a dog and the parents reaction i.e. laughing is appalling.

Some children are simply very badly behaved. Not sure why MN never seems to accept this?

Im not being deliberately obtuse, but i had a similar discussion with a family member this week. The strategies that "work" are those of ignoring bad behaviour and attempting to pre empt it. So to the outside we may look like negligent disinterested parents when actually we are expert in what suits our children. Attempting to explajn that, if you have no experience if limited executive function or impulse control, is very difficult, because it can look like we are doing nothing.

When my DS was around 5 he would sometimes attack guests (kicking, hitting etc). I used to be on tenterhooks trying to prepare food and socialise with guests and keep an eye on my son. The attacked guests were always male, and always winding him up (teasing/rough play etc). So I decided to warn the adult (e.g. please don't get DS overexcited) and then leave them to it, however I would always intervene if he tried to hurt another child (he wouldn't hurt an animal).

I think my point is that it is difficult for the parents (and they may have their reasons for not intervening) and kids do get overexcited at Christmas. Why don't you have a nice quiet Christmas at home and visit at another time of year?

Think of it like this. A wasp tries to land on your face. You swat it, shoo it, avoid it. But the rest of society is saying "dont swat the wasp! Apologise for shooing it!" And meanwhile you're thinking "it's a wasp! They freak me out! I cant NOT swat it!"

No point in making you apologise for the wasp, just try to keep the windows closed.

Brasty some children ARE badly behaved. But excluded from nursery, and swim class, and consistently displaying behaviour like this, demonstrates that it isnt a choice.

Choice seems a strange word to use for such a young child.
This child may have SN, or may be simply a very poorly parented child. And very poorly parented young children can behave very badly in lots of places because they don't actually understand how to behave appropriately. Learning to manage emotions for example, is a skill that we learn, or in some cases of SN struggle to learn. We are not magically born with that ability.

I was going to suggest inviting them to yours, at a less pressured time of year. Summer is good with kids as you can go on a stroll and get them some exercise to let off steam without it seeming an endurance challenge. And you/dh could gently teach him how to interact with dogs. Then I read that they have a dog at home :(
I find kids easier on my turf, as I know what the rules are. At other peoples houses I say 'should you be doing that?' The answer has never been 'Yes!'.
If he's going to struggle, surely good that he has a bit of support from extended family? It takes a village, and all that!

As you are rethinking how you spend time, I would think about making your visits at Easter or in summer, where you can all go for a long walk/picnic, enjoy being outside. That may well let you see a different side to your dn.

Could you also afford a Travelodge, so stay locally to your bil and sil, and spread your visits over a couple of days? You would be less tired from the drive and have a bolthole too, if things are getting stress - give everyone a break for a couple of hours, then maybe meet up again later on?

This family is clearly struggling and need support. Being rejected/ isolated by their own family because of the behaviour / issues of a 5 year old child would be a huge 'slap on the face' and will permanently damage family relationships! They are unlikely to admit there is a problem or seek support from family if there is any hint of being judged or lack of understanding or empathy. It's a vicious circle.
I would suggest making a huge effort to establish a relationship with the parents and child and offer help - spending time with the child and giving him attention. A day out at soft play or park where he can use up energy and have small bursts of attention works well. He may have autistic spectrum issues OR he may be attention seeking - either way, he is a child and the effort needs to be from the adults! It is difficult at that age - diagnosis of difficulties is fraught with problems because they are still developing social skills etc. It will get better - and this child will be part of your life for many years so investing time to establish a relationship is worthwhile.

Horrified by your post about the cruelty to your relatives' dog which is presumably ongoing, not being addressed and is of course illegal! Could you report them to the local RSPCA?

Almacogansfanfrock that has to be the stupidest, most unhelpful post ive seen in years. Seriously fucking daft.

Of course it won't help OP's issue with the child (and I wouldn't know what to advise on that) but it was my immediate response to the pitiful situation of a helpless dog.

I have no expertise on SN, but growing up I knew a child like that. He had no SN, is a regular guy now ( if a bit spoiled, but alright overall), but my god he was horrendous. His mother would not discipline him, even when he was violent, rude or just a plain pain in the ass. It just isolated him, because children are not martyrs, and should not be. It also led to "discipline" being dished out by the older siblings when they would see the younger getting kicked, or their heads slammed in doors.
Always assuming SN and expecting people to be patient and passive to abuse when there is no reasons for that is doing a disservice to everybody.

No one is condoning hurting animals, but to suggest calling the RSPCA on the basis of a single comment from a father already under pressure, is bizarre. You are clutching at straws in your attempts to demonise this family.

You lost me at the 6 hour round trip on Christmas Day every Christmas day. No way! Too far

It's so sad when a child has crap parents. It's not their fault, the child will suffer the most in the long run, in the meantime we get to suffer instead! My niece, 9 months, walked towards my DS 6 months, with her fingers ready to pinch, she wanted the toy he had, so pinched him, was gently told no. She turned round and started heading back towards my DS2 with her fingers out stretched even further, they set the precedence and did nothing. SIL said she had a problem, MIL who often took them to playgroups insisted she didn't pinch. She is 5 now, it has only escalated. It is 100% parenting, the blatant ignoring, excuses and laziness. BIL did bother to hold her back when she turned into the tasmanian devil, legs and arms going everywhere when she attacked OH, never seen anything like it IRL, didn't tell her off though. She is often dumped on me by MIL when we visit so I know she can behave, because I put a little effort in, like I do with my own dc. I'd be interested what Planet would diagnose her with? Planet obviously can diagnose a child from a few words on the internet.
OP why not have a heart to heart with your OH and see what he wants and find a way you are both happyist. Then maybe he can talk to his DM an sound her out with the your plans, doesn't sound like she enjoys it much ether. The whole family pressure thing on xmas day is overwhelming. I'd think about a completely different set up. I'd try and make it outside, where you can all enjoy a chat sitting about eating a picnic/pub meal, watching you nephew playing in the open air/playground/whatever. Throw your current plans away and start fresh, doesn't sound like anything is going to change soon, find something that works for you all, even if that is not seeing your IL's near xmas.

Numerous friends had badly behaved kids (non sn). All worked hard with appropriate discipline etc. They are all 8 plus now and great kids. Sometimes it is a case of putting the work in as parents with nt kids. They need to be taught what's acceptable.

OP, could you not have your mil for alternate Christmasses?

Scardycat3000 i most certainly cannot diagnose over the internet and your comment is a cheap and haughty dig. In the case of your neice, the key part of your sneery post is that she is able to moderate her behaviour in certain circumstances, and therefore you have ascribed that to your stellar parenting, when actually you are saying her behaviour was off at 9 months! But you know what, funnily enough this thread isnt about your neice, it has become about the attitude of people who think that behavioural problems can be managed away. Sometimes, they cant. And in the OPs nephew's case, even the efforts of the professionals at nursery and swim school havent worked, so it isnt unreasonable to deduce that there is something more going on for this little boy than poor parenting.

FrancisCrawford i will leave you to your ludicrous conflations.

OfaFrenchmind2 "Always assuming SN and expecting people to be patient and passive to abuse when there is no reasons for that is doing a disservice to everybody."

No one is doing that. In this particular case this little boy has been excluded from nursery and swimming class repeatedly. What sort of behaviour do you think a child would have to exhibit for nursery to say they cant cope??? Certainly nothing that can be parented away! I would have thought that was obvious!

You can avoid the 6 hours of driving on Xmas day by staying in a hotel.

s for your nephew, there is probably much more going on there than you know, as others have said. If you are going to carry on with the MIL/BIL/SIL Xmas Day, then it would be better to do it differently.

No 5 year old is particularly appealing or manageable if stuck in the house all day-factor in a joint walk or some other outdoor activity before or after lunch, watch something with nephew on the wretched IPad, muck about, shrug off his crap.