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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To be HORRIFIED that this might be taught in my daughters school

477 replies

NormaStanleyFletcher · 20/12/2016 13:47

Have any of you come across this? Do you know if this, or other lessons have been presented to your primary (or secondary) age children?

www.transgendertrend.com/teaching-transgender-doctrine-in-schools-a-bizarre-educational-experiment/

OP posts:
shinynewusername · 21/12/2016 00:16

If we lose this language...then we're not going to be able to speak about schoolgirls being raped. We won't have the language

Indeed - and TRA (who do not of course represent all Trans people) are already trying to shut down discussion of FGM as "cis-sexist".

ageingrunner · 21/12/2016 00:21

The ultimate in privilege. White males trying to stop women and girls of colour being able to talk about a devastating painful dangerous oppressive practice that only happens to females, because it hurts these men's feelings. I can't express how much contempt I have for those particular people.

KnitsBakesAndReads · 21/12/2016 00:30

Trans awareness is now on the curriculum at medical schools as well. Essentially the message is that you have to treat the person as whatever they identify as being, and you have no right to ever mention that a person is trans in a medical letter to another specialist even if medically relevant as it is transphobic

Surely this can't be something that trans people are in favour of? It strikes me as potentially extremely dangerous to trans people. For instance, say a person who is female but who now identifies as and presents as a man visits their GP with symptoms that could warrant investigation to rule out ovarian cancer, is it honestly being suggested that the GP should not suggest this to the patient as it would mean treating them as something other than the gender they present as? I feel like I must be misunderstanding something here.

shinynewusername · 21/12/2016 00:37

I feel like I must be misunderstanding something here

I'm not sure you have fully grasped how barking TRAs are. There are TRAs arguing that it doesn't matter if the 80% of trans kids who would have gone back to identifying as their original gender are sterilised before the age of 18, because that is better than delaying transition for the minority who do remain as trans long-term. If they are happy to sterilise children even though 80% wouldn't stay trans, they are not going to quibble about the odd missed cancer.

Caveat though - we do need to remember that "trans" and TRAs are not the same - there are plenty of trans people who agree with us that this ideology is crazy - though only a few like Miranda who are brave enough to do so without anonymity

Loopsdefruits · 21/12/2016 00:38

"Women are oppressed because of our sex. Not because of how we "identify""

Ok, so, trans women are oppressed because of their sex...as men? That doesn't make sense. So they are oppressed because they are women? Or trans?

I do think it's a little OT to change the original point (use of gender-neutral language in UK schools) to discussing how to make the topic of Boko Haram gender-neutral, because you're right... it is awful to discuss young children being raped, kidnapped and murdered whether the children are male or female. No, if children were raised as boys, they'd be killed instead, I doubt that the militia are testing their chromosomes. The problem with Boko Haram is not that they're oppressing women, it's that they're a terrorist organisation abusing and killing children and families, within that, yeh, they hurt women.

I'm not sure where people are getting their intersex stats from, but these are from this study www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11534012

This suggests that 1-2% of live births result in a child whose primary sexual characteristics deviate from average (and that may include hypospadias) and that between 0.1 and 0.2% have surgery to correct this (and correction usually requires that the genitals be altered to fit close to an average penis or vagina).

Now, the numbers might not be super accurate but around 131 million babies were born in 2011 www.ecology.com/birth-death-rates/ assuming that the 1-2% was worldwide (unlikely, as many many countries don't have good medical care) then that's still over a million children with 'ambiguous' sexual characteristics, and around 100 000 are having surgery to change their biological genitals.

You're basically saying that is isn't possible for over a million people a year to feel like they're not the gender they are being raised as?

ageingrunner · 21/12/2016 00:42

Everything Boko Haram do is obviously terrible and affects both sexes, but only girls/women are taken as sex slaves and quite possibly made pregnant etc. So we do need language to describe these specific dangers that only exist for girls.

ageingrunner · 21/12/2016 00:45

The dangers don't exist because of the gender they've been raised as or how they identify. They exist because of their female biology.

shinynewusername · 21/12/2016 00:45

This suggests that 1-2% of live births result in a child whose primary sexual characteristics deviate from average

Those are the same stats I have quoted but - as I explained above - only a tiny percentage of this 1-2% are intersex people and most of those don't have ambiguous genitalia. Good summary from the Intersex Society here.

As I explained above, the only people whose biological sex may not match their genitalia are the 1: 120,000 with androgen insensitivity - and not even all of them as it depends how insensitive their bodies are to the testosterone. Even if you counted all of them as not matching their assigned sex, that's still only 1092 births per year out of 131 million.

Loopsdefruits · 21/12/2016 00:46

Yes, trans people are being included in medical school curriculums, good, more LGBT people should be included. Unless that poster can provide some evidence though that says that doctors are not supposed to discuss the health issues that trans people face, including risks associated with their sex organs if they still have them (ovaries, vagina, cervix, uterus, penis, testes, prostate etc...) as well as any issues from the treatment they are receiving then it's not much to just 'say' it's happening. I do have a friend who is a med student, so I could ask her, or see if my university's medical school has any documents? My GP practice (university) also has procedures for caring for trans and nb students, so I could see if I could find that? It's just one place, but it's better than hearsay?

YetAnotherSpartacus · 21/12/2016 00:48

Readers might like the video embedded in this ...

rejecting-the-gender-cult.tumblr.com/post/131924675632/a-bit-of-levity-after-a-long-day

WRT the OP - I saw that post on transgendertrend a little while back. TGT is a website set up by parents, many of whom have trans children and who feel the need for supprt different from and beyond what is given by organisations such as Mermaids.

I tried to trace the books mentioned, but could not find much about them.

As I understand it, they have a small grant to produce and distribute these books and associated curriculum material. I think schools can choose to do what they want with it, but I don't think it is officially sanctioned in any way.

Schools need to treat bullying holistically and separately from the trans issue. As it stands now, many would think that only trans (or GLBT children and young people) get teased and bullied.

Perhaps if there are children whose parents have notified the school that they are transing and who want it (not all will) the school could incorporate trans into classes about diversity and acceptance.

The kinds of gender classes that Elsa mentioned sound wonderful too.

But what bothers me ATM is the way that so much is made of and about trans - its almost a moral panic in reverse when really the issue is not that big and where other groups who are minority in terms of numbers or power are ignored. The attention given is undue and unwarranted.

Loopsdefruits · 21/12/2016 00:56

Just hopefully to let people panic less about trans medicine being on the curriculum, the information from the Royal College of GPs is here www.rcgp.org.uk/policy/rcgp-policy-areas/lgbt.aspx (treatment of trans patients in primary care) discusses treatment of gender dysphoria, but also treatment and screening for the individual with regard to their assigned gender at birth.

Klaphat · 21/12/2016 00:59

Women are oppressed because of our sex. Not because of how we "identify"

Ok, so, trans women are oppressed because of their sex...as men? That doesn't make sense. So they are oppressed because they are women? Or trans?

What evidence is there, actually, that trans women are oppressed? Do I dare ask that?

ageingrunner · 21/12/2016 01:01

If they are oppressed, it's because people believe them to be homosexual men, not because they believe they are women. It's homophobic abuse that they receive.

ageingrunner · 21/12/2016 01:03

Which is shit, but different from the shit that women get, for different reasons

Klaphat · 21/12/2016 01:07

Transgender/Trans – An umbrella term for people whose gender identity and/or gender expression differs from the sex assigned to them at birth. This term can include many gender identities such as: transsexual, transgender, androgynous, gender-queer, gender variant or differently gendered people. Trans people may or may not decide to alter their bodies hormonally and/or surgically

If I feel uncomfortable wearing skirts and dresses, am I trans? If I refuse to wear make-up on principle, am I trans? If I refuse to wear high heels, am I trans? If I grew up liking toy cars and lego and being repulsed by dolls, am I trans?

Largely rhetorical questions.

That document is specifically by The Royal College of GPs in Northern Ireland (RCGPNI), by the way.

KnitsBakesAndReads · 21/12/2016 01:13

Sorry loops, I think it's a bit disingenuous to say people are "panicking about trans medicine being on the curriculum." I think it's entirely positive that medical students learn about gender dysphoria. On the other hand, I think it's bizarre to suggest that a medical practitioner should not make reference to a patient's sex even if failing to do so might negatively impact that person's health.

Italiangreyhound · 21/12/2016 01:25

Loopsdefruits "If you are a female, then you are a female, someone telling you that you are a male doesn't make you male, having a vagina also doesn't inherently make you female." That's part of what is being debated. Having a vagina is the physical expression of having XX chromosomes. So it is part of being female, or potentially part of being intersex. It is not part of being male.

"The 'trend' is not a trend, it's a change in societal understanding of trans people, and the age that people figure out their gender identity. It's also a reduction in trans young people dying by suicide, as well as an attempt to reduce violence towards trans men and women."

No sane person wants trans people to commit suicide. Or wants violence against trans people at all. But also it is important to note that not everyone buys into gender identity. I am a person, not an identity. I think it is very sad so many people have bought into this. It is not the same as people with sexual dysphoria. Most trans women do not change their penis. there may be many reasons for this but it does suggest many are not in the 'wrong body'.

"Gender identity, much like sexuality, is innate and can be very varied (kinda like the kinsey scale or similar) so no, not all people are women, or men. Some people are both, some are neither, some change depending on when you ask."

Please prove this, because if gender is, as I believe, a social construct that has changed massively over time and space (unlike human puberty, sexual reproduction etc) how can it be innate. Why are you using sexual orientation as a comparison, the two things are totally different.

" But hormones can be reversed if needs be, and puberty can be 'postponed' which allows the young person more time to figure things out. We wouldn't dream of telling a child they are 'too young' to know their sexuality?"

Well, where to begin, hormones cannot always be reversed. ask the women who have started on Testosterone and now have a lot more facial hair, even when they stop taking it.

We may not try and tell a child they do not know their own sexuality but morally and legally would not want children to act on that knowledge until they reach the age of consent. That is why we have laws to protect children from sexual activity before the age of consent.

'Gender-neutral language' I totally do not care about gender neutral language, because gender is just a lot of stereotypes. But girls have vaginas and can be impregnated and they are abused and subjugated because of that so I do not want girls and women to lose the ability to talk about their situations, their lives. That sounds fair enough doesn't it?

"Otherwise you're assuming you can guess someone's gender from their appearance which is pretty rude." No one wants to guess someone's gender. I don't care if they wear a dress or trousers, play with dolls or trains, like pink or blue. It's fine if these things are important to some, but don't impose them on other people. That's fair isn't it?

shinynewusername · 21/12/2016 01:32

Loops - firstly thank you for engaging in this discussion, rather than just shouting 'Transphobe' and doing a runner, as other posters do. I'm sorry if our questions feel overwhelming- it is not meant personally Smile

Can I ask about sport? Is it ok with you that men are now taking women's medals and prizes, simply by calling themselves TW? NB I am not talking about intersex people like Caster Semanya but Tw like this

Italiangreyhound · 21/12/2016 01:55

loops I know you have been asked a lot of things so feel free to ignore me but...

"Yeh... it's a bit wordy, but it works?" But actually so does just telling the truth... girls are likely to be taken out of education, married off to older men and have shit lives... you see it loses something when you need to say... "children raised as female due to their primary sexual characteristics".

because 'children raised as female due to their primary sexual characteristics' are GIRLS.

NONE of this bollocks is really going to help trans people. It is going piss off all the women, like me, who would naturally be (and still try to be) trans supporters.

I know the moments I began to 'lose sympathy' with all this, actually there were three points:
one was when a trans woman told me trans women were women
another trans woman told me that women should not be worried about trans women in the toilets and actually shouted me down so much I questioned my own concerns
and the final nail was being told no male ever dressed up as a woman, or identified as trans, and attacked a woman. Which is simply not true. I don't want to characterize all trans people in this way at all but to simply deny it ever happens is really unhelpful and untruthful

So all this language '1984' new speak, say what is not true and pretend it is true, really does not help trans people.

What I would imagine many normal trans people, not activists, want is:
to be safe
to be accepted
to able able to work in a job they like
to have a home, partner, family, career, whatever...

That's what I would want, do want, and I hope trans people would have this and all the other normal things that do not require us to lie about our biology.

The constant dicking around with language of what we can and cannot say about ourselves (insisting those who are not trans identify as 'cis' etc) will not be helpful IMHO to trans people and will actually be counter productive.

I have a huge amount of sympathy and concern for genuine trans children and adults but we need extreme caution when we think about medicines and drugs and hormones and surgery used in this way. And the book referred to in the OP talks about 'a 12 year old undergoing medical transition'. So we cannot pretend this book is not about medical 'matters'!

Italiangreyhound · 21/12/2016 02:09

YetAnotherSpartacus hilarious link.

Totally agree with shinynewusername "Loops - firstly thank you for engaging in this discussion, rather than just shouting 'Transphobe' and doing a runner, as other posters do. It is appreciated.

Loopsdefruits can I just say regarding intersex,as you know it is not to do with trans and that article link says "We conclude that this frequency may be as high as 2% of live births." (Emphasis mine).

There is an island where a number of people are born supposedly female and then develop a penis at about age 12. The rate there of intersex, on that island where this is a major phenomenon, is under 2%. If intersex were really as common as 2% everywhere don't you think more people would be aware of this?

www.telegraph.co.uk/science/2016/03/12/the-astonishing-village-where-little-girls-turn-into-boys-aged-1/

My clumsy attempt at under 2% comes from this comment... "Around one in 90 children in Salinas are guevedoces and although they resemble sexually normal males, subtle differences do still exist in adulthood. Most have decreased amounts of facial hair and smaller prostate glands relative to the average male."

Anyway, thank you for engaging, Loopsdefruits - I must finish the present wrapping!

Oblomov16 · 21/12/2016 02:09

I am very unhappy about this being taught in Year 7. In such an unbalanced way. It is a very complex issue. And needs sensitive handling. Which it clearly is not.
Very worrying.

Atenco · 21/12/2016 02:56

Apart from teaching children the need for empathy and tolerance, I think it would be much more beneficial to teach that nearly all medical treatments have a down-side, nearly all medicines have secondary effects and that they should take responsability for their own health and not subject healthy bodies to unnecessary medical intervention.

Atenco · 21/12/2016 02:59

65.8% of LGB &/T people reported being verbally assaulted at least once due to their actual/or perceived sexual orientation and/or gender identity.
Through Our Minds – The Rainbow Project 4

I don't agree with verbal abuse of people because they are different, but I'm sure I have been verbally abused for being a woman, apart from having been nearly raped more than once and subjected to violence, haven't we all?

KnittedBlanketHoles · 21/12/2016 03:56

If gender identity is instead but I don't have one do I not exist, am i not a woman. Am i simultaneously not a woman but also a cis-woman at the same time - a cis-woman because a man tells me I am and that my gender identity matches my sex (even though I claim to not have a gender identity).

I know I exist though, so I know gender identity is bollox.

Next.

KnittedBlanketHoles · 21/12/2016 03:58

And obviously I disapprove of teaching bollox as truth to children.

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