To be HORRIFIED that this might be taught in my daughters school

[NormaStanleyFletcher]

Have any of you come across this? Do you know if this, or other lessons have been presented to your primary (or secondary) age children?

www.transgendertrend.com/teaching-transgender-doctrine-in-schools-a-bizarre-educational-experiment/

Who cares how you define yourself genderwise as long as you are not preying on children or coercing anyone!

Except misshelena that if you remove sex segregation then - as we have seen, again and again - that gives carte blanche for women to be put at risk. If "defining yourself genderwise" means that anyone with a penis can go anywhere they like, including into women-only facilities (refuges, hospital wards, prisons, changing rooms, etc etc) then where are the women supposed to go in order to have any sort of hope of privacy or safety?

Manumission

My mistake not establishment but institutions

You posted

"Educational institutions need to be pushing back with (at a minimum) the idea that words have defined meanings."

but my point remains the same, Who in these "institutions" should be "pushing back? You presumably mean a person should be doing the "pushing"?

Fair enough, Beyond, but if the crime wasn't trans related then is the fact that the victim was trans even relevant?

FWIW, by the way, most of the non-gender-conforming people I'm personally familiar with (there are a few) are raging feminists. No "us v. them" agenda.

Queen I'm just outside Portland, Oregon, and all new buildings there (this might be state-wide, but I can't remember) are required to provide "gender-neutral facilities" in addition to the more conventional two - so still giving the option for single-sex to those who want it. This is as much an issue of disability access - providing for those people who need assistance from a carer of a different sex/gender - as it is anything else, but certainly does serve those people who aren't comfortable using either male or female for any other reason.

They do something similar to this here. LGBTI+ though, not just transgenderism.

I'm fine with it. Better than the education I got at a Catholic school that emphasised the existence of hell and the myriad of sins which would land you there (including being gay, trans etc).

I'm confused that that point is controversial enough to be picked out for debate TBH.

Educational institutions (schools, colleges , universities) primarily exist to educate. So it is worrying that PSHE syllabi thatvinvolve distorting the established meaning of words might make their way into the taught curriculum.

As many others have pointed out, there are moderate trans POVs and moderate ways to teach tolerance and inclusion that don't involve Orwellian revisionism.

Not RFFT but what percentage of the population are we talking about that warrants entire lessons? Fair enough if it is substantial but if it isn't then I'd rather funding be spent elsewhere.

Manumission

Does that mean that you can't answer the question, or won't answer the question?

you posted
"...pushing back with (at a minimum) the idea that words have defined meanings"

"at a minimum" so presumably its not just the words meanings that you have issues with. And again who will be pushing back.

Ah - Ninja I'm in London and space is at a premium and there are many old buildings. New ones I think need to have accessible facilities but they are few and far between. Many of our school buildings etc are v old as well. Theatres are a good one - many are an accessibility and toilet-using nightmare. The buildings are just too old and they are how they are - there's hardly enough space for standard ladies / gents let alone anything else.

Plus of course many of the louder TAs aren't interested in gender neutral facilities - they want to use the "right" ones.

So it's not just "and" - it's replacing the whole lot.

Thing is if you put the sinks in the cubicles etc the queues get MASSIVE. Because instead of say 6 loos you've got 3. All the urinals go as well. It's not going to work in the centre of many of the more crammed cities, I don't think.

Anyway.

This is a distraction from the main conversation. Sorry!

Boney I think you're repeatedly imagining meanings that aren't there.

Educators should object to words being redefined and 'repurposed' with political intent. What kind of educated adult wouldn't object to that?

Queen this law was very definitely not made retroactive, for all the reasons you mentioned. Although space and the age of buildings isn't going to be such an issue as it would be in London, it was really cost that decided the fact. But then, let's face it, even a new building that's only going to meet the minimum "accessibility" requirements will hardly be accessible at all. Mostly from what I've seen, rather than dedicating more square-footage for the "gender-neutral" toilets, they take space away from the other two.

Ninja, I was responding to someone saying females can't identify out of oppression, giving an example of such that I had seen recently (of someone who calls themself male but was still assaulted as a female)

Well, quite.

(Post at 19.05 by Queen)

The thing is, (to change the subject), I can easily imagine a company boasting a board that is 50% female, and then all the female ones are trans. And they would get a "super diverse" award for it as well. No-one can point out there's no, erm, "uterus havers" there, because that is transphobic. The women on the board are women. What's the problem?

Look at that situation in the army. When have the army ever been at the forefront of a new progressive social movement, huh? Yet here they are, giving front page headlines to their first woman in a combat role. Why? I'll tell you why. It's because, and I know this sounds hard to believe, they don't actually 100% totally believe that she's actually genuinely female through and through.

The point that this person was the first women before any of the old fashioned cunty types of women could have POSSIBLY got there, because of the timelines, just adds insult to injury TBH. If I was one of teh first women on the list to join the inventory I'd be feeling pretty fucked off.

Plenty of situations in sports with transwomen starting to dominate as well.

I think that we were starting to get somewhere, and this is part of the backlash. Put as back down in our place again. It used to be men on top and women at the bottom. Now it's men on top, women (who used to be men) below that, and somewhere on the floor is the ones who have the babies who haven't even got a name any more.

Actually as I write I realise that maybe i am a bit more pissed off with some of this than I realised!

I had missed the army story.

Do you happen to know the name or when it happened?

It's in a link upthread a bit

I know it's the sun but has some pics

Ah. I missed that Beyond, I see your point. Although a counter-argument (just for the hell of it) is that, considering the prevalence of targeted violent crime against trans people, they're not 'opting out of' oppression at all, only adding an extra layer of discrimination.

Thanks.

Manumission

It was also reported by the BBC and on BBC breakfast. They sat with straight faces as they announced the first woman to serve on the front line, whilst showing a clip.

"I see what you're saying, but I disagree."
You might disagree, I might disagree, but that doesn't change the fact that this is the way they view it. My child-who-is-no-longer-a-child has used these exact words to me when trying to explain it - "Biology has no meaning to me."

I am not saying this isn't how they see it. I am saying they are wrong. And I believe they have reached this point because the meaning of gender and sex have been conflated so often.