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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Breaking : possible terror attack in Berlin

774 replies

MagicMary1 · 19/12/2016 19:41

twitter.com/ap/status/810931083944534016

This is so sad.

OP posts:
BillSykesDog · 20/12/2016 20:57

The don't intimately examine them. They haven't had anything done yet so there would be no point! They stop them travelling if they suspect that's what they're going for. Nobody has ever been prosecuted for doing it IIRC.

Wookiecookies · 20/12/2016 20:58

"Once again a thread like this is being hijacked for peoples particular political purposes. In the mean time there are families grieving."

I dont see it like this. Each and every one of us has a vested interest in discussing how we as a society can find a way out of this. Even if it is just ruminating on little ole mumsnet. We have all acknowledged this awful tragedy, and this discussion does not cheapen that in any way at all, it arose because of it. If we dont talk about these things, nothing will ever change, and maybe it wont even if we do. But I would rather give the latter a shot personally.

ElfontheShelfIsWATCHINGYOUTOO · 20/12/2016 21:03

I dont know what they were hoping to do at the airport - I was rather more pointing out its been in the media quite a bit.

Pluto30 · 20/12/2016 21:05

he couldn't be placed in the car... forensics etc...

Forensic work couldn't have been done this fast.

rale124 · 20/12/2016 21:06

**Werkzallhourz

A thousand times this. Many on the left have a quite arrogant in my opinion view of the average person as ignorant. I've heard 'think of how stupid the average person you meet is, remember half of them are even more stupid'. It's like do they have no self awareness of what they are saying, if they bumped into a random person in the middle of the street they would automatically assume they are more intelligent.

Because of this they assume that certain ethnic, class and religious voting blocs will follow their political ideology blindly. Call your political opponents racist and you have the ethnic minority vote, call them rich capitalists and you have the poor vote, call them sexist and you have the female vote etc.

But at the same time they fundamentally misunderstood the demographics as individuals. An interesting argument I heard after Trump's win was that the left had blindly assumed that the Hispanic vote was safe due to Trump's illegal immigration views without realising that many Hispanics are legal residents unhappy with others side stepping the system they complied with and that many have rather traditional conservative views (very Catholic, support right to bear arms, working in blue collar industries traditionally neglected by left wing politicians etc).

It's the same in the UK. For decades Labour assumed it could get away with the working class vote by calling the Tories anti poor. But fundamentally their policies are the carbon opposite of what working class people want (controlled migration, secure borders, end to PC culture, a strong employment producing industry, the removal from the EU etc). It's classism of low expectations, they assumed a few jibes against the conservative party would be enough to completely change WC political views when the WC has been all but ignored at best demeaned and demonised at worst over the last several decades within the Labour Party from Brown's bigotgate to Thornburry's flag gate.

I'm no fan of the Tories and even in recent months I have criticised them especially for the Internet censorship bill but say what you want about them they know how to listen to the electorate. May came into office knowing she was in on a mandate of leaving the EU and cutting migration and even under immense pressure from left wing institutions is sticking to her guns.

Mean while left wing parties are still stuck on the same record trying to subvert the EU referendum and pretending Luton and Bradford are beacons of peace and love, in fact worse they are regressing into the revolutionary socialist politics of the 70s and 80s like people don't remember the pain and suffering they caused. And they wonder why they are been left in the dirt by centre right parties. I can't see myself voting for any of them at this rate.

FizzySweeties · 20/12/2016 21:13

Werkz you speak a lot of sense.

1horatio · 20/12/2016 21:16

pluto

I thought so as well.

But that's basically what the news said. That the... shoot... investigators (?) couldn't find something to link the suspect to actually ever be in the car

annandale · 20/12/2016 21:24

'Interesting this should come up now, because on another thread I was howled down by the regressive let about FGM continuing in UK. Prove it, link it, how do you know, you're lying, etc etc.'

No you weren't. As a person with a lot of time on my hands I've read two threads where you commented on FGM, Southallgirl. On one, you posted the same Guardian link that was used above, and a poster commented something very similar to 'thank you for the interesting link'. On another, there was a fair old bunfight but nothing like on the same lines that you've described above, and certainly not denying the existence of FGM in the UK.

Rale I think you are right about the complete cluelessness of many campaigns of those who would consider themselves to be on the left. The idea of an alliance of 'progressive and left' ignores the fact that class-based economically left-wing campaigns often have very little in common with progressive campaigns, and that it's perfecly possible to be progressive and either classic liberal or right wing.

SouthallGirl · 20/12/2016 21:24

Many on the left have a quite arrogant in my opinion view of the average person as ignorant. I've heard 'think of how stupid the average person you meet is, remember half of them are even more stupid'

I agree, Rale124, but it's far more. I find the hive mentality in younger people of the Left really alarming. If a piece of information is presented, they routinely dismiss it as a lie. But if it comes from one of their own, then it's true. You cannot discuss anything on a forum with anyone who has that mentality.

rale124 · 20/12/2016 21:25

Regarding Maajid Nawaz, he was actually a former Islamic fundamentalist and was imprisoned in Eygpt for terror offences.

The Southern Poverty Law Centre (SPLC) an American left wing hate crime NGO with notable cases for suing the KKK and winning (but also target more controversial targets with no involvement in hate crime such as Christian groups) actually listed him as an Islamphobic hate figure for speaking out against his former ideology and for calling for the reform of Jihadi Islam.

Crazy huh?

Pluto30 · 20/12/2016 21:25

1horatio Sounds dodgy. I'm not familiar with German law, but would've thought that reasonable suspicion would've been enough for them to apply to hold him for longer, until basic forensics/investigative work could be done.

Extremely risky move to release him, IMO.

bertsdinner · 20/12/2016 21:27

Agree with your post rale124, especially your first paragraph.

1horatio · 20/12/2016 21:28

Pluto
Wait, I'll reread.

It's usually quite similar to Swiss law. But that's procedural crim law stuff (which I don't even know for Switzerland anymore, tbh)

BillSykesDog · 20/12/2016 21:29

I'm very suspicious about this release and am waiting to see how it develops.

If you had created a suspect designed to cause maximum embarrassment to Merkel he would be it. Asylum seeker, not Syrian, young, male, arrived after Merkel's We can do it' speech. Been arrested for sex attacks and released. They appeared certain he had been caught. The German state has a track record for trying to hide this type of thing or deny it.

I'm just waiting on them blaming Russia...

SouthallGirl · 20/12/2016 21:29

Annandale - Excuse me, but you are not reading all the pages of the other thread. The FGM conversation was on Sunday I believe.

The "thank you for the interesting link' reply was TODAY. Get your facts straight.

1horatio · 20/12/2016 21:39

pluto

There is no Haftbefehl of the Bundesstaatsamwaltschaft .. uhm, 'order for custody' by the state's attorney (I never do crim law, let alone in English, so...).
A civilian apparently saw him get out of the vehicle and followed him. But he seems to have lost the attacker from his sight for some time, so that isn't enough to hold the suspect they actually arrested.

The info about his whereabouts he gave during the interrogation were apparently checked and seen as correct.

Amaq, a speaker for the Daesh said the perpetrator was acting for them.

Werkzallhourz · 20/12/2016 21:50

Oh Hotmail124, there is so much to discuss in all this.

Many years ago, a great Pakistani student at the school I worked at, won a debating competition. She was brilliant. Next day she came to school black and blue. Beaten by family for her success. Soon removed and married off.

The thing is ... where does this behaviour come from? If we stand back and clear our eyes, remove our prejudices, we are faced with a very bizarre situation.

Because this behaviour isn't "Pakistani", is it? Pakistan made a 35 year old Hina Rabbani Kaur the foreign minister in 2011. If there was a deep animosity to women, education and achievement in Pakistan as a whole, I very much doubt the country would have psychologically coped with Benazir Bhutto or the raft of young female politicians from Alizeh Iqbal Haider to Shazia Marri without the collective brains of Pakistani men exploding.

So is this behaviour "Islamic"? Errr ... I can't even see how one could begin to make such an argument. Considering that one of the most hardcore Wahhabi Muslim states in the world (Saudi Arabia) sends hundreds of young women to Russell Group Universities to study, admittedly, educational theory at postgraduate level, I can't see how the women's acquisition of knowledge could be perceived to be remotely un-Islamic, even by the hardest Salafist standard.

Incidentally, the most renowned hardcore Salafist scholar at Al Azhar had been on a campaign to declare the niqab as un-Islamic since the '90s, so strict adherence to Islamic doctrine can often send very learned scholars off in an entirely non-ISIS direction.

And that's not to mention the female students from Qatar, Kuwait, Bahrain that all come to Britain to study. And all these are fairly "conservative Muslim states" in a sense, though it has to be said that when you adjust your view to what conservative Gulf state Islam actually looks like, it is not entirely that dissimilar to our own middle class values. For example: the divorce rate in Kuwait is about 50 percent and to British eyes, the marriage and divorce patterns look a lot like British middle-class "serial monogamy" except with legal contracts, which we would have if we had co-habitation protection laws.

So you start looking at tribal Muslim communities. And here, maybe there is some traction. But even then, you don't get Afghani or Waziristani warlord fathers behaving in this manner. Okay, there is a kind of Islamic paterfamilias attitude, but educated girls are rather valuable. Crikey, brides are valuable. They are so valuable that a significant proportion of the local men cannot have a hope of getting one (which is one of the motivations for these men joining mujaheddin groups; they have no hope of ever having a wife or a family). Such girls can be married to educated boys from socially prestigious families, and elevate the standing and bonds between tribes and groups.

So again, one asks ... where does this behaviour come from?

I speak from my own experience too. In my life, I have known two young Muslim British-Pakistani women murdered by "boyfriends", one of them was the sister of a close friend of mine. In both cases, the family were devastated, broken beyond repair, desperately scarred for the rest of their lives. And I know that the crime occurred because those families were perceived to have elderly fathers and very young brothers.

So what is really happening? Because when you look at the wider picture, you have to say that something in the translation of fairly rural Pakistani culture to Britain has gone awry. And I suspect it is because the way such behaviours would be policed in rural Pakistan does not exist in England in the same manner, so such behaviours are not checked in the way they would be back in Pakistan: ie. If you beat up your daughter in Pakistan, locals would gossip about you and you would find your son couldn't get a bride.

hotmail124 · 20/12/2016 21:57

SouthallGirl I didn't see those picture, but The Kite Runner book, also shows the change, in Afghani society. American( Operation Cyclone ) then Russian supported Taliban got their mucky hands on that beautiful country.
On a really mundane level, these countries in Asia and the Middle East are so beautiful, and have been fought over for centuries by world powers. This dreadful, shocking tragedy in Germany is a direct result.
rale124 that's interesting about the SPLC's take on the suspect. I suppose they're a campaigning group and not law enforcers, but disappointing if as it sounds, they were supporting this fellow? One man's freedom fighter........... Wish they had nerf guns instead.

hotmail124 · 20/12/2016 22:14

In fact, Werkzallhourz, I'm not sure which area she was from, but a Pakistani colleague's dad, advised us not to get involved, he knew the area.
Really interesting on what you said about how behaviours wouldn't be tolerated back home. Don't know what the solution is, but a civilised society anywhere in the world, calls this out. One 'others' people to one's own detriment. Learning to be inclusive and firm about egality, could have prevented so much bloodshed and misunderstanding on all sides. I have seen the Muslim population of Britain over the last 50 years, become 'othered' and inevitably, with strategic funding to encourage extremists, that has been used to create the mess we're in now in Europe and the Middle East. Old school Islam, as I knew it, and I'm an atheist, seemed to be an empowering, intellectual and even musical ( Sufis in poor Aleppo) religion. Benazir Bhutto, millennia of culture, it's weird, why a culture would do this to itself. Religions do get hi jacked.

I'm still ashamed that Muslim ( and working class) girls are not being better served in this country by the education system. Strong girls and mums have more control over wannabee killers.

SouthallGirl · 20/12/2016 22:30

Werkz - Very good thought-provoking post, thank you.

Perhaps once a culture is transplanted, and the host culture is not approved of, I think this is when the overbearing attitudes come to the fore. Intermarriage is not encouraged, so how to keep your kids from socialising with their school mates and getting led into cigarettes and alcohol? You ban them from having non-muslim friends outside of school.

annandale · 20/12/2016 23:19

OK so I've been back and read every page - again. No you were not 'howled down by the progressive le[f]t about FGM continuing in the UK'. Your statement that 'liberals' have allowed FGM to flourish in the UK was commented on fairly relentlessly in that you were asked again and again to explain what you meant, and at no time were you able to come up with any coherent response explaining your statement. There was also no reason why I shouldn't have talked about a thread that happened today as opposed to any other time. My facts are fine, thanks very much. Oh and there has been a prosecution for FGM in the UK, just no convictions.

In fact, there was something you could have said, and I wonder if you are thinking perhaps of this article from 2014 which is about the French approach to FGM. I note that those included in the article are not all convinced that the UK is much of a centre for this sort of thing, but it clearly happens, or did then. There is a glancing comment to the need to enforce physical examination of children, which from your other comments on the big thread you seemed to suggest should be made compulsory. And certainly at first glance this would be a very illiberal procedure, which I would guess is perhaps where you are coming from - that the safety of these children must trump the illiberality of compulsory genital checks. I would agree with you, and would guess in fact that there is provision for this already, though there could be a low appetite for making it happen in parts of the UK.

1DAD2KIDS · 21/12/2016 00:35

Werkzallhourz you do make me wounder about our attitudes towards troubles in Africa and the middle east. Maybe it's white man's guilt but often we blame a lot of the problems in these areas on European colonialism. We blame these problems on our selves and not the people in these areas. It almost sounds insulting like the people in these parts of the world are too stupid to mess things up them self and too stupid to fix them their self. As if it can only be our powerful self who are to blame and only we can fix the problems.

GardenGeek · 21/12/2016 00:57

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

EnthusiasmDisturbed · 21/12/2016 01:24

Some very interesting posts

I think part of the problem is how many people want to pick Islam as a religion apart they will go to great lengths to post a passage from the Koran and demand to know how any good Muslim can justify it

The Koran is the word of god and has to be read a whole and the vast majority of believers recognise that it came about when life was very different so it's not all applicable

On the other side is the arguments is that Islamic terrorists are not real Muslims. Can only good people be Muslim ?

We have to work at understanding why so many young people have been drawn to radical Islam for either those who are from Muslim backgrounds or have converted it's offering the issue is complex and there isn't one answer

Oblomov16 · 21/12/2016 03:08

Frightening. So sad.

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