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Original poster

...to feel depressed that only 7% of UK identify as Feminist?

999 replies

DioneTheDiabolist · 18/12/2016 18:30

www.fawcettsociety.org.uk/2016/01/we-are-a-nation-of-hidden-feminists/

7% of the population and just 9% of women in this country identify as feminist. I'm not saying that everyone should call themselves feminist, I care more about what people do, rather than the label they assign themselves. But I am Sad that the number is so low.

Given that most people believe in sexual equality, why do so many people not feel comfortable to call themselves feminist? And what (if anything) can we do about it?

OP posts:
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BoneyBackJefferson · 23/12/2016 13:58

ErrolTheDragon
Very few coding jobs require 24/7. Most of it's a develop/test/release cycle. I write scientific software and it's the most flexible hours imaginable - especially as it's ideal for telecommuting. Absolutely perfect for work-life balance.

Yet the out of hours pays more and from the stats gives a false impression of a pay gap.

Or should we just be encouraging women just to take the 'naice' jobs?

girlwiththeflaxenhair · 23/12/2016 14:01

Also why is it no one here who's interested in gender equality complains that only around 30% of A level english students are male ? Where is the govt initiative to fix this ? Does it need fixing ?

TheMortificadosDragon · 23/12/2016 14:03

I also don't really buy the need for there to be role models

Just because you don't see the need doesn't mean there isn't one. It's a pretty well-established phenomenon.

IMO the focus on STEM is because there's such an obvious disparity in some fields in this country - and we have shortages esp of engineers.

I absolutely think there should be more focus on getting boys to consider careers such as nursing, and care of the elderly - there's a tremendous need there, but unfortunately its not well paid and high status. One of my nephews is working in this area - his 'role model' was his mother who did geriatric nursing.

bumbleymummy · 23/12/2016 14:03

Errol, I agree about flexibility and I know several women coders/developers who are highly regarded and well paid. I'm wondering where the idea that women's coding is seen as less valuable.

It's a good point about it not being a very 'visible' job though. Although I think that can be said about a lot of careers. I think many teenagers choosing degrees are unaware of many of the career options open to them.

TheMortificadosDragon · 23/12/2016 14:10

Or should we just be encouraging women just to take the 'naice' jobs?

Nope. We should be encouraging everyone to find the right job for them, regardless of their sex. Quite a lot of my male colleagues work flexible hours and some telecommuting. I was by happenstance maybe a trail blazer on this because I asked, and they wanted to retain me - delighted that others may have benefitted.

amispartacus · 23/12/2016 14:12

IMO the focus on STEM is because there's such an obvious disparity in some fields in this country - and we have shortages esp of engineers

If you have the potential to be a good STEM person, it would be a shame to be put off seeing it as a career for you - because then that's a waste of potential. The Government has focused more on coding at school and developing our STEM industry - and any inititiative that can get people into these industries is a good thing.

There is a lot of talent and potential out there that is potentially going to waste - any industry and company that does its best to remove any barriers people perceive exist is going to have the advantage when it comes to utilising talent. A company that makes itself 'family friendly' is going to have access to more skilled people who want such a job.

girlwiththeflaxenhair · 23/12/2016 14:17

I absolutely think there should be more focus on getting boys to consider careers such as nursing, and care of the elderly

It's not just that though surely there should be as much focus on getting boys to study English etc as there is a huge gender imbalance even before we talk about jobs.

We should be encouraging everyone to find the right job for them, regardless of their sex

The trouble is though that there is an assumption on the part of feminists who don't believe in gender, that the sexes will distribute evenly across the disciplines. When this doesn't happen it's assumed on the one hand (where men outnumber women) to be due to sexism, and on the other (where women outnumber men) because men think womens jobs are crap. That latter explanation is largely pushed by feminists as far as I can see.

amispartacus · 23/12/2016 14:23

When this doesn't happen it's assumed on the one hand (where men outnumber women) to be due to sexism, and on the other (where women outnumber men) because men think womens jobs are crap

Or maybe....women are discouraged and face barriers applying for 'men's jobs' as has been discussed on here and elsewhere

AND
Men face barriers and perceptions that 'women's jobs' are crap - such as the caring professions like nursing, carework and nursery / early years teaching - so they don't apply for them.

Maybe it's 2 sides of the same coin?

The trouble is though that there is an assumption on the part of feminists who don't believe in gender, that the sexes will distribute evenly across the disciplines

I think you misunderstand feminism. I don't think it's needs an even distribution. It just needs people and society not to be put off applying and doing these jobs because of being male or female. If people think 'I can't do that job, it's a male / female job, it's not for me, people like me don't fit in there, there are barriers etc' - that's an issue.

TheMortificadosDragon · 23/12/2016 14:25

It's not just that though surely there should be as much focus on getting boys to study English

I'm not aware of any shortage of English graduates. I am personally more inclined to think there are too many girls studying it rather than too few boys.

The trouble is though that there is an assumption on the part of feminists who don't believe in gender, that the sexes will distribute evenly across the disciplines.

I don't agree with that assertion. I don't believe in gender but I do believe in sex. There will be some jobs in which there will always be a preponderance of men because statistically they are more likely to be big and strong. But in the past, this has led to only men being hired, excluding women at the upper end of women's strength distribution for no good reason.

RufusTheSpartacusReindeer · 23/12/2016 14:30

*girl

Think they are starting at the bottom with english studants

Massive amounts of time are spent at infant school level to try and encourage more boys to read and write 'for fun'

amispartacus · 23/12/2016 14:31

I think that if you have the ability to do something, you should be able to do it - and not be put off doing it because of your sex.

I think that's the same with potential as well. People should be allowed to develop their full potential and society should place as few barriers as possible in their way. We live in a society where some people are given a helping hand to achieve their potential and others find themselves being held back, tripped up etc.

RufusTheSpartacusReindeer · 23/12/2016 14:33

It's a good point about it not being a very 'visible' job though. Although I think that can be said about a lot of careers. I think many teenagers choosing degrees are unaware of many of the career options open to them.

Agree with this, a lot of the careers provision seems to have died out in a lot of schools snd colleges. There used to be an actual careers office in the library when i were a girl Smile

bumbleymummy · 23/12/2016 14:44

Amis, I asked you earlier. What are these barriers to women getting into STEM?

Rufus, yes, we had careers classes too. :) Although I don't think the job I'm working in now actually existed back then! It did tend to focus on medicine/law/accounting/engineering/teaching without going into much detail about how you could use subjects/skills in different and much broader areas.

girlwiththeflaxenhair · 23/12/2016 14:53

What are these barriers to women getting into STEM?

I would like to know this too, because it's been years now of trying push girls into e.g. software.

Also on the one hand you have someone who works in it saying that "its not very visible" and on the other someone saying that the reason STEM is so important and the other subjects not so much, is because STEM jobs are "high profile" so which is it ?

girlwiththeflaxenhair · 23/12/2016 14:57

To clarify - where is the evidence that there are girls who love coding and computers but would never consider a career in it. A lot of boys who end up doing computer science at uni have had an interest in computers and technology since they were children. Are the girls who have the same interest and don't follow through to study it, or consider a career in it ?

ErrolTheDragon · 23/12/2016 15:02

What are these barriers to women getting into STEM?

The discrepancy between single and mixed sex schools gives some clues - stereotypes and peer pressure. At a girls' school, if there's gcses on offer in the non-core stem subjects - comp sci, electronic products etc, if there is a robotics club, if there schemes like Go4Set, Crest awards and Arkwright scholarships on offer - they are clearly meant for girls. At a mixed school, it would seem that this isn't always perceive to be the case.

It's a bit of a paradox that single sex education appears to be able to help equality in this area!

SpeakNoWords · 23/12/2016 15:14

From my point of view, it's that girls don't get the opportunity to have an interest in it from a young age. I was lucky in that I was given a computer (a very second hand one with a tape drive!) to play at programming with when I was about 6 and self taught myself how to program it in BASIC. Thankfully I was always encouraged and never discouraged from doing so. I was never made to feel that I was going against gender expectations for being interested in it, despite it being clearly a masculine pursuit in the U.K. given the statistics on GCSE/A levels/degrees/employment in this area. Interestingly in other cultures the proportion of women studying CS at university is more like 50%, places like Malaysia and Guyana apparently. I wonder why women there are so different to women here?

All children should now be studying programming in school from KS1 upwards through to KS3, so perhaps that might have an impact in the long run.

bumbleymummy · 23/12/2016 15:18

Interesting Errol. I suppose the same applies in all-boy schools with cookery/sewing/singing classes that may have a lower uptake with boys when they are available in a mixed school...

Can it be considered a 'barrier' though if it's available and they choose not to take it. It would be different if the girls/boys weren't allowed to take certain subjects but I don't think that has been the case for quite some time.

ForalltheSaints · 23/12/2016 15:19

Feminism has sadly become associated in too many minds with men hating, not gender equality, I feel.

ErrolTheDragon · 23/12/2016 15:39

Forall - it's a bugger. Lots of us saying, regularly, that we dont hate men - but for some reason we still get this boring excuse reason thrown at us.

Can it be considered a 'barrier' though if it's available and they choose not to take it.

I'd say so - psychological/social barriers can be as real in their effects as more tangible ones.

Boolovessulley · 23/12/2016 15:51

Jumping in here.
When I tried to apply to be an air traffic controller( back in fine day) I was told that ' we don't employ women S air traffic controllers.

years later whilst applying for a promotion within the banking sector. I was repeatedly asked how my h would feel about looking after our child whilst I worked.

I didn't get the promotion and was later told by another manager that it was because I had a baby.
I did get another promotion so never took the case further.

RufusTheSpartacusReindeer · 23/12/2016 15:59

Over 30 years ago a friend and i were at a navy airday

We asked the commander i think at the time why we couldnt be fighter pilots

Periods apparently...

Didnt press him, i think all three of us were mortified that he had used the word Smile

RufusTheSpartacusReindeer · 23/12/2016 16:02

And i didnt get a promotion because i had a baby

girlwiththeflaxenhair · 23/12/2016 16:06

With all due respect i fail to see why this has anything to do with girls not wanting to be computer programmers.

I am not aware as I said earlier of there being lots of girls who want to become programmers who choose not to do it. There is vague talk about girls perhaps not thinking it is for them, but surely this would be dispelled by the many initiatives. It seems to me that this a politically motivated push to get girls to do things by women who themselves have no interest in it. I'm thinking of computer software in particular here. They do not accept that there could be any reason for male domination of the industry other than the fact that men are sexist and discourage girls.

SpeakNoWords · 23/12/2016 16:13

What do you think the reason is that girls/women in the U.K. are not apparently interested in CS? When other parts of the world don't seem to have the same thing occurring?