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Original poster

...to feel depressed that only 7% of UK identify as Feminist?

999 replies

DioneTheDiabolist · 18/12/2016 18:30

www.fawcettsociety.org.uk/2016/01/we-are-a-nation-of-hidden-feminists/

7% of the population and just 9% of women in this country identify as feminist. I'm not saying that everyone should call themselves feminist, I care more about what people do, rather than the label they assign themselves. But I am Sad that the number is so low.

Given that most people believe in sexual equality, why do so many people not feel comfortable to call themselves feminist? And what (if anything) can we do about it?

OP posts:
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5
amispartacus · 22/12/2016 23:11

How can an industry be made more female friendly? Why should it be? There's currently equality but you want this boost for 'poor women' and adaptations for them yet you also believe we're the same

Why don't you ask your female pupils this question? I bet that would make for an interesting discussion. You could even have a school debate on it.

hotmail124 · 22/12/2016 23:14

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

BoneyBackJefferson · 22/12/2016 23:24

DeviTheGaelet

"As a class"

So we are to take the figures as a fact because its now ok the generalise?

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 23/12/2016 04:03

Something which I dislike a lot about a certain type of feminism are threads like the current one on FWR about Karen Matthews.

Some , not all but some, posters making excuses ranging from the laughable to downright offensive for the conduct of women like Matthews, Myra Hindley and Tracey Connelly and attempting to argue they were harshly treated.

There is a debate to be had about the fact that apparently non violent female offenders are more likely to get a custodial sentence than men. I don't know if that is true but it gets mentioned from time to time. But the idea that there must always be an excuse for serious female criminals or they would not have done it if they were not influenced by a man or The Daily Mail is being horrible about them infantilises women.

The 9% figure might have been even lower if those questioned had read it.

girlwiththeflaxenhair · 23/12/2016 08:29

ami

What's interesting to me is that it seems evident the education system is failing boys. However, you think the main problem with it is that apparently there are "barriers" which are preventing women from becoming e.g. coders. Lots of support and encouragement is offered to women, none to "working class white kids" but moreover to any men in general.

Since the idea that women freely choosing "en masse" not to do something is anathema you are obliged to remind everyone about these barriers and how big they apparently are.

Why do you have such a low opinion about the courses women do ? Why do you not think money should be spent encouraging more men to do them ? Why do you value STEM so highly ? Do you personally have interest in writing computer programs ?

bumbleymummy · 23/12/2016 09:23

What are these barriers for women entering STEM?

RufusTheSpartacusReindeer · 23/12/2016 10:00

Loads of male teachers in my childrens secondary school

One in the junior school, 8 classes

None in the junior school

Anacdata obviously but its my understanding that this follows through to most schools

Anyone got any idea why?

pooch i dont think you were being patronising

ami i admire your patience as well Grin

mist thank you for your very interesting posts

DeviTheGaelet · 23/12/2016 10:11

boney
Hours worked and overtime are controlled for by the ONS. So that's not an explanation for the gap.
Women earn less. More women work in low paid jobs, more men in high paid jobs. I'm interested in why that is. It isn't a generalisation, it's a fact.
It's very frustrating there are people out there who wilfully argue against the evidence that there is no problem. It's like climate change deniers. It seems very hostile to women.
I don't understand why we are such a threat, although some of the views expressed on this thread that life is a zero sum game do go some way to explaining it.

BoneyBackJefferson · 23/12/2016 10:40

DeviTheGaelet

Women earn less. More women work in low paid jobs, more men in high paid jobs. I'm interested in why that is. It isn't a generalisation, it's a fact.

but is that a wage gap or a job gap?

It's very frustrating there are people out there who wilfully argue against the evidence that there is no problem. It's like climate change deniers. It seems very hostile to women.

I'm not saying that there isn't an issue, but if I am understanding you correctly, the issues isn't the wages (as such) but the discrepancy in numbers of women in high paid jobs.

bumbleymummy · 23/12/2016 10:49

Maybe the lower paid jobs have more flexible working hours/less responsibility and more women choose that because they want to work around their children?

M0stlyHet · 23/12/2016 11:01

There are companies still where women are paid less than men for doing exactly the same job. My workplace did an internal audit and found, depending on job role, the gap was anything between 2% and 10%. They claim they haven't got the money to fix it. My case is going through the courts at the moment. My union successfully fought a similar claim in a different workplace last year, suggesting that it is, sadly, not an unusual situation. The pay gap is not solely down to women "voluntarily choosing to do jobs that are less well paid" (and why should, say, a hotel cleaner who maybe cleans kitchens and lifts heavy bins/bags of laundry be less worth paying properly than a refuse collector). Nor is it to do with part time issues - these are corrected for in ONS stats. The fact is that there are still employers out there paying women less for doing the same job.

DeviTheGaelet · 23/12/2016 11:09

the issues isn't the wages (as such) but the discrepancy in numbers of women in high paid jobs.
We'll, it's both. Where women are paid less for equal work, that's wrong. And illegal but still happens.
Where there are less women in high paid jobs, I want to know why. Women being paid less puts them at higher risk of living in poverty, at higher risk of being financially dependent on a man and therefore at higher risk of domestic abuse. So it's not a good thing.

DeviTheGaelet · 23/12/2016 11:10

M0stly Flowers

bumbleymummy · 23/12/2016 11:13

Mostly, I think Boney's point is that the link ami provided isn't comparing like with like as you have done. It would be good to see what percentage of women are being paid less for the exact same job. You'd also have to take into account how long the person has been doing the job because someone who has been working for the same company for 15 years may very well be earning more than someone who has been in the job a year. Even though they are technically doing the same job (e.g. IT support role) one of them will have more experience.

bumbleymummy · 23/12/2016 11:15

"Where there are less women in high paid jobs, I want to know why."

Because quite often those high paid jobs require longer hours, more travelling, less flexibility and many women don't want to do them perhaps?

BoneyBackJefferson · 23/12/2016 11:37

Thank you Bumbly for putting it in a much better way :)

DeviTheGaelet · 23/12/2016 13:01

Because quite often those high paid jobs require longer hours, more travelling, less flexibility and many women don't want to do them perhaps?
Many women who take jobs like e.g. law, accounting, consulting know that's what comes with the job. I think it's odd to suggest their ambition fades when they have a baby.
There's also ample evidence that jobs lose value when they become "women's work" and gain value when they become "mens work" (coding is a great example of this).
So while you may be correct in some individual cases I think that's too simplistic an argument and also a convenient way to stop society having to deal with difficult topics.

bumbleymummy · 23/12/2016 13:29

Devi, do you think it's possible that a highly career driven woman in law/accounting etc may decide that they want to step back a bit from the longer days when they have babies? I can think of several women in my circle of friends who have. It's not that their ambition has faded - they just prioritise different things.

How does coding become less valuable when women do it?

I don't think society is avoiding dealing with issues women may face in the work place. Quite the opposite in fact. I think I've benefitted quite a lot from being a woman.

BoneyBackJefferson · 23/12/2016 13:33

DeviTheGaelet

But if we take your example of coding, if your job requires you to be on call 24/7 and you can no longer be on call 24/7 should you be paid the same as someone that can?

And I apply this equally to men as well as to women.

girlwiththeflaxenhair · 23/12/2016 13:36

There's also ample evidence that jobs lose value when they become "women's work" and gain value when they become "mens work" (coding is a great example of this).

Is this why the degree courses that women seem attracted to don't count, and only STEM is important ? So the imbalance in numbers is irrelevant because STEM is all that matters ? Why do you think computing so important ? Should we spend as much money getting men get into teaching/nursing/psychology - or only to get more women into STEM subjects ?

FWIW - the idea that men elbowed women out of the "coding" industry, an industry they developed is feminist propaganda - coding in the early days was seen as an extension of typing, or data entry - it became more male with the rise of the home computer, but either way the field has changed beyond recognition. HR depts are usually pressurised to hire more females, there is a massive effort so these barriers that you keep talking about must be pretty big. Would you be able to say what they are ?

RufusTheSpartacusReindeer · 23/12/2016 13:38

Agree with devi

I think that society places a lot of pressure on people over the generations

This is changing gradually and i think with more women needing to work that it will change even further

But its slow

My husband is annoyed because one of his members of staff has been pressured into working part time instead of the full time she wanted

Absolutly her 'choice' but as many people have said on these types of thread choices are not made in a vacuum

I am not as highly educated or as well read as some on these threads (you would do well not to mistake that for stupidity) but feminism when it speaks about society as a whole and about the 'class' of men and women makes a lot of sense to me

RufusTheSpartacusReindeer · 23/12/2016 13:39

Oh and i found the section on jobs in that Gender Delusion book fascinating

Especially when it came to doctors

ErrolTheDragon · 23/12/2016 13:43

Very few coding jobs require 24/7. Most of it's a develop/test/release cycle. I write scientific software and it's the most flexible hours imaginable - especially as it's ideal for telecommuting. Absolutely perfect for work-life balance.

Maybe there's a bit of an issue that telecommuters and 'backroom' types aren't visible, so when girls and young women are (consciously or not) wondering what jobs there are for 'people like me', women like me are completely invisible so the impression of who coders are is media stereotypes? Maybe I need to overcome my RL shyness and visit schools somehow...

girlwiththeflaxenhair · 23/12/2016 13:47

On a different tact since no one seems to want to answer my questions about who exactly it is that values STEM so highly and paints the courses that women do want to do as less valuable....

Would anyone who is in a "female" job ever consider going to a school to get boys interested in their professions ?

girlwiththeflaxenhair · 23/12/2016 13:48

I also don't really buy the need for there to be role models....i never heard of a guy who got into software developer so he could become the next grady booch.