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Original poster

...to feel depressed that only 7% of UK identify as Feminist?

999 replies

DioneTheDiabolist · 18/12/2016 18:30

www.fawcettsociety.org.uk/2016/01/we-are-a-nation-of-hidden-feminists/

7% of the population and just 9% of women in this country identify as feminist. I'm not saying that everyone should call themselves feminist, I care more about what people do, rather than the label they assign themselves. But I am Sad that the number is so low.

Given that most people believe in sexual equality, why do so many people not feel comfortable to call themselves feminist? And what (if anything) can we do about it?

OP posts:
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DeviTheGaelet · 22/12/2016 22:22

Do you believe men and women or boys and girls are the same at birth and everything beyond that is from social conditioning? There are no innate abilities more likely to be present in one sex than another?

Can I answer? I believe (and I'm backEd up by science in my belief) that although males and females as a class show some differences there is such a huge overlap between these that an individual is unlikely to be a "typical man" or a "typical woman".
Hence anything targeted at a gender is unhelpful because it will only suit the tail ends of each group, rather than the majority in the overlapping area.
I'm not sure what benefit there is to stereotyping in teaching, in fact I thought if was actively frowned upon.

girlwiththeflaxenhair · 22/12/2016 22:22

wont answer mine either...

amispartacus · 22/12/2016 22:23

Do you believe men and women or boys and girls are the same at birth and everything beyond that is from social conditioning? There are no innate abilities more likely to be present in one sex than another

I think so. I would prefer to think that the environment children grow up in is more important than innate abilities rather than saying 'you're a boy so you should be like this, you're a girl, you are more likely to be like this'.

So you're an idealist then

If you mean that I want all children to achieve their potential regardless of gender - and that I teach children so they don't feel hindered by being boy or girl, that I encourage all children and that I try to identify issues that affect children and how they are learn / attitude to learning, then yes.

Being an idealist in education is a good thing.

(oh, and primary by the way. Liberal thinker as well. )

Mistoffeleze · 22/12/2016 22:24

Still goading Hotmail? Your writing is at least proving that the education system is failing some women.

hotmail124 · 22/12/2016 22:25

'There is also a lot of research done about barriers women face in STEM subjects. I believe some of those people aren't on MN. Some might be on NetMums'
This is great pastiche! Grin

hotmail124 · 22/12/2016 22:26

ouch! was that with your male brain or your female brain?

DeviTheGaelet · 22/12/2016 22:26

To say that women are working for nothing from 10th November 2016 is a ridiculous statement as it takes in to account pay from the very highest to the lowest paid, different jobs different responsibilities, even different firms.
I'm not quite getting it. If there was no gender pay gap, surely these things would even out?
I guess when the mandatory reporting legislation comes out in April it will become clearer.

girlwiththeflaxenhair · 22/12/2016 22:29

I guess not.

BoneyBackJefferson · 22/12/2016 22:29

amispartacus

There is a difference between teachers wanting all children to do well and the systems put in place by the government for them to do well, there are many systems for girls, ethnic minorities, SEND etc. but (what I believe Girl is saying is) there is no government system in place for white working class boys with no SEND.

Mistoffeleze · 22/12/2016 22:31

If you mean that I want all children to achieve their potential regardless of gender - and that I teach children so they don't feel hindered by being boy or girl, that I encourage all children and that I try to identify issues that affect children and how they are learn / attitude to learning, then yes.

Of course, I just think that we all have different potentials.

I've not said that "you're a girl so you should be like this" simply that girls are more likely to be like...

Being an idealist in education is a good thing.

I disagree. Realism means we're better armed to help individuals achieve their potential.

For example, encouraging women into STEM, beyond removing barriers to entry, is a waste of time and in no one's interest. Aiming to get 50:50 just because is failing everyone involved.

amispartacus · 22/12/2016 22:31

The gender pay gap is interesting and the headline statistic doesn't reveal the complexities underneath.

Did you know that women earn more for part time work per hour than men?

That sounds like discrimination. But there is a really obvious explanation that Philip Davies forgot to mention

SpeakNoWords · 22/12/2016 22:31

Surely the Pupil Premium would include white working class boys?

amispartacus · 22/12/2016 22:34

For example, encouraging women into STEM, beyond removing barriers to entry, is a waste of time and in no one's interest

But you agree that removing barriers is important and part of that is encouraging girls to enter it and see it as a profession for them?

birdsdestiny · 22/12/2016 22:35

Yes speak it would.

SpeakNoWords · 22/12/2016 22:35

And I'm sure there are local initiatives to tackle the issue as well.

hotmail124 · 22/12/2016 22:35

'Still goading Hotmail? Your writing is at least proving that the education system is failing some women.'
Don't really know what to say to that, but compassionate warm wishes to both of your brains.

girlwiththeflaxenhair · 22/12/2016 22:36

ami

Is your position that the education attainment gap doesn't matter and that it doesn't matter because the only subjects that really count are STEM and men dominate these ? Or are you not talking to me now ? (as its been two pages since you asked me to answer a question of yours but you refuse to answer any of mine ?)

BoneyBackJefferson · 22/12/2016 22:37

DeviTheGaelet

There are more men at the top level of the pay scale.
There are more women at the bottom of the pay scale.

When you add it all up and create an average then the women are going to be paid less over the course of their working career.
This I do not dispute

If there are two cleaners (one male and one female) and they are paid the same hourly rate, if they both work 16 hrs, no pay gap

If one works 24 hrs and the other 16 suddenly there is a pay gap.

same wages, same job, different hours. there is going to be a difference.

At the base rate they are paid the same.

Unless you are comparing like for like. there is no point.

amispartacus · 22/12/2016 22:39

We need more people in STEM industries. An industry that is famous for being overwhelmingly male.

I think it's a good thing to help build this workforce by removing barriers to entry, removing barriers to progression and making it 'more female friendly'. That means encouraging girls (who I believe are just as capable of boys) into these careers.

Otherwise we are wasting potential and losing out on a potential workforce of STEM people in the future.

BoneyBackJefferson · 22/12/2016 22:41

SpeakNoWords

SEND, Pupil premium etc will catch some but not all.
Where as there are local and national initiatives to get girls in to STEM, encourage ethic minority children to do well etc.

If you could find local initiatives I would be very interested, but all that I have seen are at school level.

girlwiththeflaxenhair · 22/12/2016 22:42

So the measure of success is how many women get into STEM and that is the major issue in education today ?

Mistoffeleze · 22/12/2016 22:51

But you agree that removing barriers is important and part of that is encouraging girls to enter it and see it as a profession for them?

Have you stopped beating your wife?

I think the barriers have been removed. Of course, girls should be as encouraged as boys to study for and work in any field they want. I don't think girls or women should be artificially thrown into it.

How can an industry be made more female friendly? Why should it be? There's currently equality but you want this boost for 'poor women' and adaptations for them yet you also believe we're the same.

Can you see why I'm getting confused?

You seem entirely focused on any area where you perceive women aren't doing as well ignoring any area they've overtaken their male counterparts. Do you still maintain that feminism is of benefit for both sexes and is not a monomaniacal movement focusing on evermore insignificant issues intent on blaming men for all your woes.

That's the way it's coming across although you are a lot more 'normal' than most feminists I've encountered.

DeviTheGaelet · 22/12/2016 23:01

There are more men at the top level of the pay scale. There are more women at the bottom of the pay scale.
The question then becomes why that is. It still indicates something systematic is happening, especially when you see how many women drop out at middle management.
I don't know, I can see why the stats are a problem and people can argue methodology all day long, but the fact remains women (as a class) are paid less than men (as a class) and that's not really OK.

SpeakNoWords · 22/12/2016 23:03

No, it's fine, because it's natural and innate, and women choose to inflict it on themselves anyway. Or, it doesn't exist. One of those.

birdsdestiny · 22/12/2016 23:06

Pp covers all children who have received free school meals in the last 6 years, I actually think that's quite a broad sweep to tackle inequality. I wonder if the issue is how effective PP is. There is some research emerging that targeted initiatives are not actually helpful in this case. For example in some schools universal free school meals has been shown to have a dramatic effect on disadvantages children. Those type of initiatives tend not to be popular in the current political climate.