...to feel depressed that only 7% of UK identify as Feminist?

[DioneTheDiabolist]

www.fawcettsociety.org.uk/2016/01/we-are-a-nation-of-hidden-feminists/

7% of the population and just 9% of women in this country identify as feminist. I'm not saying that everyone should call themselves feminist, I care more about what people do, rather than the label they assign themselves. But I am that the number is so low.

Given that most people believe in sexual equality, why do so many people not feel comfortable to call themselves feminist? And what (if anything) can we do about it?

All of them ? Riiiigght. OK then, thanks.

I think there needs to be more investigation into what's happening with university places

What do you think is going on? Is it more places being available for courses which women are more likely to apply for?

People are very fond of using headline statistics when it suits e.g. the gender pay gap without looking into nuances

I agree that the gender pay gap gets more complicated when you look beyond the headline stats. But then it raises further questions.

What I mean by my question is why do you think girls outperform boys to such a large degree

I think it's been alluded to on here and elsewhere. Look beyond the stats and ask yourself which group of boys appears to be underperforming. From my understanding, it's white, working class boys.

There's been a shift in focus to more academic subjects away from practical subjects. Does this affect boys who may be less interested in such subjects? Who don't see a purpose for it?

Education is a massive issue for many people. It's far more complicated than girls outperforming boys - it's looking at the subjects on offer, the attiutudes towards learning, the lessons themselves, the form of assessment (there had been a change from 1 exam at the end towards more continuous papers, several exams during GCSE year which may suit girls more than boys) etc.

Ami, does it matter what they're studying? Isn't the point that more women are entering third level education compared to men?

girl

Why do you think that white, working class boys are the group most likely to not do well in education - i.e. get 5 GCSEs at Grade C or more?

Isn't the point that more women are entering third level education compared to men

Well, is it because more courses seem to be available that women are more likely to apply for?

Are women more likely to be entering 3rd level education in courses that don't pay as well as the ones that men are more likely to be entering? (such as bursing and social work)

does it matter what they're studying

It does as it skews the statistics.

I'd like to see stats on employment after uni to see if subject studied makes a difference to employability. Presumably it does.

Shall I take that as a no? In your opinion there is no evidence that there is a systemic problem in the education system causing the imbalance ? So as soon as pretty clear imo evidence exists of different outcomes based on sex, that's all nuances and could be anything you know ....But we still need more encouragement for women to get into certain subjects because we think they're important. Do you think as much effort should be expended getting men into teaching and psychology as is spent on getting more women into stem?

What encouragement do white men need ? Feminists and liberals have been telling us for generations that they don't need help and are more privileged than white working class girls, black people, Asians you name it. Could that have anything to do with it ?

And should we attempt to redress the imbalance by spending loads of money getting boys to apply for all these crappy subjects they don't want to do because they're conditioned to see them as being "for girls" (which I assume is partly your argument) ? Why do these courses have larger intakes if society is so desperate for software engineers ?

There's also some research on why people apply for uni. I can't quite remember what it said but it did discuss that women are more likely to apply if they are certain they will get a place whereas boys apply even if they think they are unlikely (in general)

(A bit like applying for jobs and promotions)

Looking at Cambridge now. Headline figures are

3576 boys from state schools applied, 1013 got offers (about 1/3). 822 took them.
2739 girls from state schools applied, 900 got offers (about 1/3), 734 took them.

These headline statistics are probably more complicated once broken down by subjects

www.undergraduate.study.cam.ac.uk/files/publications/undergrad_admissions_statistics_2014_cycle.pdf

Why do these courses have larger intakes if society is so desperate for software engineers

Well, isn't that a massive question about higher education? We should be encouraging women into these courses, shouldn't we?

So ideally, we'd see more women applying for and on these courses.

Maybe we should take steps to encourage women into coding and STEM industries?

Hang on, that's what we are doing.

girlwiththeflaxenhair All of them ? Riiiigght. OK then, thanks
Look at who controls your money and time?
It's not working class black girls.

I think there's a problem with societal attitudes towards boys and girls which is reflected in the outcomes of education. I think that there are different groups of boys and girls who have differing levels of achievement and it's too simplistic to just look at gender alone as the main factor. I would like to see a more balanced gender split on STEM courses, yes. I don't think that means trying to make boys do courses they wouldn't otherwise choose. However, some might be more likely to choose a different kind of course if attitudes change. I don't see there's a problem with changing the gender split on courses where girls outweigh boys, if that's a particular concern that men have. Teaching is one good example where there are more women than men. I'd be happy for that to shift to a more equal balance.

I don't think it needs lots of money. I think it needs careful thought and a change in attitudes and expectations.

^Maybe we should take steps to encourage women into coding and STEM industries?

Hang on, that's what we are doing.^

So that's your answer ? What we're already doing is the answer to closing the educational attainment gap ? I assume also that the answer as to whether we ought to invest as much money and time encouraging boys to do teaching, nursing and psychology as we do trying so hard to get girls to read "The C Programming Language" ?

I think encouraging anyone into teaching right now is a good idea given the numbers that are leaving. A lot of money is available for that, the bursaries are large for shortage subjects (which incidentally are mostly ones that are perceived as traditionally male).

I don't know about nursing numbers, but I'm sure I read somewhere about the NHS needing a lot more nurses.

Table 4.2 is interesting for Cambridge

www.undergraduate.study.cam.ac.uk/files/publications/undergrad_admissions_statistics_2014_cycle.pdf

It breaks down subjects, applications, offers and places taken up by men and women.

It says a lot about places available and the subjects which tend to attract more men or women.

Computer sciences: 512 men applied, 71 women. 100 men were given offers and 87 took the place. 19 women were given offers and 17 took places

English: 217 men applied. 68 given offers. 58 took places
550 women applied. 155 given offers. 135 took them.

SpeakNoWords

The problem isn't the bursaries.

I assume also that the answer as to whether we ought to invest as much money and time encouraging boys to do teaching, nursing and psychology

I think there has been a lot of money invested in getting people to do teaching.

Especially in the primary area.

We do need nurses. They are still seen as 'female' areas - so getting men into nursing is a massive challenge.

How would you suggest more men become nurses?

So as usual your explanation amounts to "it's all the patriarchy".

Hotmail

Choose to see their mothers getting less pay, fewer work rights,?

There's no such thing as the pay gap. Women absolutely don't have fewer workers rights in the UK. Not sure about the US.

in US in 30 days.

What?

in many states. no reproductive autonomy?

You mean no legal abortions? Blame religion, not men.

And you are really part of the education game?

Yes, although, thankfully not the American system.

Girls are being conditioned to take part in a fiction that BME citizens do, we can do without more 'Uncle Toms'.

Again, what?

Bottom line is, all girls work and study harder, all women work and study harder, white men get most of the wealth and power.
Simple.
Observe, learn, act.

And like that, pooof, the credibility of everything you say is gone!

speaknowords

I wonder, do girls and boys that choose to do things/have an academic profile that goes against your gender expectations have something different about their brains - do you think they are somehow wired differently? A "boy" brain in a girls body perhaps? How does that situation come about?

Yes. They're wired differently to average brains. I keep talking about averages or generalisations but you are narrowing it down to specific examples. There's nothing unusual per se about a girl who excels in Engineering but if you have 100,000 children, the boys will tend to do better at it. The reverse in English lang. and lit. I'm have a typically boy brain in many ways. My approach to confrontation is quite male, for example. I'd much rather study a subject with yes / no answers (maths, coding) than an essay based subject like philosophy.

I've kept reiterating that we're all different and each have our own strengths and weaknesses. Individually, breaking a trend isn't remarkable.

TheMortificadosDragon

Funny you should say that. There was only one boy on the robotics activity this year. More than half of the Raspberry Pi Club were girls.

SeekEveryEveryKnownHidingPlace

Have you ever looked at the clothes on sale for little children, Mist?

Yes. Two sons. They always have far fewer choices. The matriarchy in action!

Ami

Education shouldn't favour anyone.

Higher education should favour the most able. There's a point in life where prizes for effort become unimportant and survival of the fittest kicks in.

Are women more likely to be entering 3rd level education in courses that don't pay as well as the ones that men are more likely to be entering? (such as nursing and social work)

I'd suggest women tend to do better in these roles than men. There's nothing stopping either se x pursuing a career in any field though. We're back to equality of opportunity vs equality of outcome. I believe in the former and you the latter.

It says a lot about places available and the subjects which tend to attract more men or women.

And what does this tell you then? What's your take on those stats? That because us poor women struggle, there should be more places made available?

Universities work on supply and demand too.

amispartacus
How would you suggest more men become nurses?

How do you get (some) women to feel comfortable around male nurses?

So as usual your explanation amounts to "it's all the patriarchy

If you mean that men are put off teaching young children and caring for people as a nurse because of conditioning and messages given to them by the system, then yes.

This is an 'interesting' approach to getting men into nursing. Just a little bit sexist though

That last question wasn't supposed to sound so sarcastic Ami

That because us poor women struggle, there should be more places made available

As a headteacher, do you think girls are more likely to apply for places that will accept them?

As a headteacher, why do you think boys are more likely to apply for computer sciences and girls are more likely to apply for English?

Do you, as a headteacher, think this is a problem? Do you, as a headteacher, encourage your pupils to do subjects that are normally seen as male / female?

I've heard boys say they feel uncomfortable in a class full of females (such as English) and that puts them off studying it.

I've heard girls say they feel uncomfortable in a class full of males (such as coding) so they don't study it.

As a headteacher, how do you tackle those feelings and what do you say to pupils who have these concerns?

If you mean that men are put off teaching young children and caring for people as a nurse because of conditioning and messages given to them by the system, then yes.

No, i mean the educational attainment gap. Your belief that girls would be programmers in equal numbers to men, and that the course men choose to do are somehow more important I find a little odd from a feminist.