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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

...to feel depressed that only 7% of UK identify as Feminist?

999 replies

DioneTheDiabolist · 18/12/2016 18:30

www.fawcettsociety.org.uk/2016/01/we-are-a-nation-of-hidden-feminists/

7% of the population and just 9% of women in this country identify as feminist. I'm not saying that everyone should call themselves feminist, I care more about what people do, rather than the label they assign themselves. But I am Sad that the number is so low.

Given that most people believe in sexual equality, why do so many people not feel comfortable to call themselves feminist? And what (if anything) can we do about it?

OP posts:
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girlwiththeflaxenhair · 22/12/2016 15:38

Do they really think that there are no barriers facing women and girls in the UK today and no expectations of women that need challenging?

I think they would wonder what motivates you to focus on girls and women (over boys) when there are many other factors that determine the quality of life someone will have. Maybe you could answer what it is about the plight of women in the UK today that motivates you so ?

DeviTheGaelet · 22/12/2016 15:41

True. Infanticide is largely by women but I'm yet to see large groups of men protesting about women and children being left alone together.
I don't think 2 babies a week are being killed by their mothers. If there were, I'm sure lots of people would be concerned and taking steps to prevent it.

In fact I found this (FOIA request) suggesting there were 13 infanticide convictions between 2005 and 2013

www.cps.gov.uk/publications/docs/foi_disclosures/2014/disclosure_13.pdf

amispartacus · 22/12/2016 15:43

Looking at KS2 results, girls outperform boys in all areas - maths it's equal - although at the top level, 18% of boys attain a high score compared to 15%.

www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/549432/SFR39_2016_text.pdf

Do you think it's because boys tend to do well or not very well because of innate ability or because of teaching methods? I am sure you are aware of issues around maths teaching - right / wrong etc and English teaching.

amispartacus · 22/12/2016 15:46

Maybe you could answer what it is about the plight of women in the UK today that motivates you so

With all due respect, I think that question has been answered many many times on here and other threads.

Maybe you could reflect and try to answer that question yourself? MN is a good source for that.

girlwiththeflaxenhair · 22/12/2016 15:46

Do you think it's because boys tend to do well or not very well because of innate ability or because of teaching methods?

What has happened to teaching methods recently to create this gap ? What brought it all about ?

girlwiththeflaxenhair · 22/12/2016 15:51

Maybe you could reflect and try to answer that question yourself?

Would i conclude, as you have, that the most worthy investment of my time and abilities was in focussing on helping girls and women (exclusively) in the UK overcome the many issues they face ? Is that what you would recommend ?

Mistoffeleze · 22/12/2016 15:51

Mistoffeleze, what does this mean?

"Chemistry tends to be for the most intelligent which tends to be boys"

Have I got it right that you're a teacher, and you believe this to be true?

Headmistress actually. A mixed school for 18 months up to and including A Levels / IB.

Were you talking about my assertions about science or sex?

Re. boys and girls, my statement is borne out by many, many studies and statistics. Boys are the strongest and weakest academically with girls occupying the middle ground.

Regarding the science, chemistry requires a deeper understanding and so favours the more intelligent. Physics for lazy people who are reasonably clever but can bluff their way through having learnt the minimum and can put it into use. This suits boys. Biology is a subject that needs less understanding but lots of effort, time and different abilities to learn lists. This suits girls.

Of course, I'm talking about averages and typical people. But there are boy brains and girl brains (yes, the science is still being debated here but I know what my experience has shown) and some subjects and learning and teaching styles are better suited to these different sexes.

Tell me why I'm wrong. Please do. I'm sure you know far more than I do but this is an area I'm actually extremely experienced and qualified in.

Ami, you are being very patient. Hats off to you!

And she's managed to avoid patronising people with a different viewpoint to hers. You could learn something there.

PoochSmooch · 22/12/2016 15:56

From the the tone of your last post, Mefistofeleeze, I don't think that either of us would get much out of an engagement. Your accusation of me being patronising does not sit well next to this: "Tell me why I'm wrong. Please do. I'm sure you know far more than I do but this is an area I'm actually extremely experienced and qualified in".

There was absolutely no need for you to take that tone with me. Very, very rude and uncalled for. So, I respectfully decline your invitation to debate further.

amispartacus · 22/12/2016 15:57

Boys are the strongest and weakest academically with girls occupying the middle ground

How do you know that? Is it down to the nature of assessment, a love of learning facts, teaching which 'favours' boys, an environment that encourages boys to see themselves as scientists etc.

Biology is a subject that needs less understanding but lots of effort, time and different abilities to learn lists

I can see that boys tend to more obsessed with learning lists - looking at you, DS and Pokemon.

But is being 'good' academically at chemistry just an ability to learn lists? Or is the definition of someone who is good at chemistry is someone who is good at learning lists IYSWIM?

Does the nature of assessment favour those people who are good at remembering things?

If the assessment was changed away from 'remembering' to asking why, explaining, thinking etc, would there be different results?

girlwiththeflaxenhair · 22/12/2016 15:58

There was absolutely no need for you to take that tone with me. Very, very rude and uncalled for. So, I respectfully decline your invitation to debate further.

Very Very rude after telling ami that she had incredible patience for even speaking to anyone on the thread. You've got to be having a laugh.

amispartacus · 22/12/2016 15:58

Please do. I'm sure you know far more than I do but this is an area I'm actually extremely experienced and qualified in

You are not the only one.

Stoviesplease · 22/12/2016 16:02

My experience is that girls in my family at least (through conditioning?) tend to be more people and hence teacher-pleasing.

My own boys are well behaved and polite but they have very little interest in their teachers good regard. They attend schools where they are allowed essentially to work at their own pace in mixed ability classes. It has become wearing having to push them to do anything beyond what school requires! I know, tiny violins..

Then exam year happens and some boys finally realise there was a point but it's often too late!

I have to say I think my boys needed tougher, pushier schooling. In fact without my DH' s sergeant-major style input, my eldest would have failed.

I wouldn't have believed any of this stereotypical tale of minor woes when I embarked on parenthood years ago!

PoochSmooch · 22/12/2016 16:03

Don't be so disingenous! I was congratulating AmI for not getting abusive in the face of what looks to me like provocation, and for sticking around to debate her point, for trying to be clear about what's she's talking about, not for some imaginary "lowering herself to talk to peasants".

Are you having a laugh?

amispartacus · 22/12/2016 16:06

Then exam year happens and some boys finally realise there was a point but it's often too late

My experience is that girls in my family at least (through conditioning?) tend to be more people and hence teacher-pleasing

I would agree. I worry about DS as well.

amispartacus · 22/12/2016 16:08

It has become wearing having to push them to do anything beyond what school requires

DS is similar. I hope he sees education is important. I want him to do his best, not just the acceptable minimum.

Mistoffeleze · 22/12/2016 16:25

But is being 'good' academically at chemistry just an ability to learn lists? Or is the definition of someone who is good at chemistry is someone who is good at learning lists IYSWIM?

I was talking about biology and list-learning. Chemistry requires a deeper understanding. Biology is about learning lists. Labelling a plant, a cell, parts of the eye etc. That's what biology is. At least until post-18.

Does the nature of assessment favour those people who are good at remembering things?

Yes. It's biology. It's what they do.

Just as the nature of a maths assessment favours those who can do the maths; not explain why prime numbers are important in IT. That would be a different subject.

I also said it was girls who tend to be better at this learning in biology as they are self-motivated and put the time in. Lazier boys do better at physics as they can learn a few formulas and then apply them to most questions.

How do you know that? Is it down to the nature of assessment, a love of learning facts, teaching which 'favours' boys, an environment that encourages boys to see themselves as scientists etc.

I'm talking about general IQ. I know it thanks to studies and statistics. This is innate and nothing to do with teaching or education or the environment.

I have to say I think my boys needed tougher, pushier schooling.

Absolutely. Girls are often more self-motivated, better behaved and also faster to learn. Reading, for example, takes boys longer to practice. As schools are losing the support of parents, boys are falling behind in reading proficiency, the basis for all education.

One of the nicest things about working in a fee paying school is that we almost always (because of course we do make mistakes / some parents are arseholes) have the support of parents both in disciplinary matters and ensuring homework is completed. Boys tend to need more discipline not least due to toxic masculinity peer pressure as well as benefiting most from homework.

SpeakNoWords · 22/12/2016 16:38

Mist if you encounter a student you know nothing about, do you make any educated guesses about how they need teaching based on their sex? If they subsequently demonstrated a different set of abilities to those you normally expect of their sex, can they access an appropriate education?

Do you think that expectations and socialisation has any effect on the apparently innate tendencies of girls and boys?

amispartacus · 22/12/2016 16:42

I'm talking about general IQ. I know it thanks to studies and statistics. This is innate and nothing to do with teaching or education or the environment

Do you think the IQ test is a perfect way of measuring intelligence? Or do you think it favours certain 'intelligences'?

Absolutely. Girls are often more self-motivated, better behaved and also faster to learn. Reading, for example, takes boys longer to practice

And how much of that is 'innate' and how much of that is down to social expectations?

It's a very complex area.

You do though seem to think that there is a difference between male and female brains - with more extremes found in male brains where as female brains are more in the middle. A wider range in male brains compared to a narrower range in female ones.

As a headteacher, do you treat and expect the same from all your pupils or do you expect boys to do better in certain subjects? Is there any hidden bias in your approach?

amispartacus · 22/12/2016 16:43

Slight cross post there Grin

SpeakNoWords · 22/12/2016 16:57

Thinking about types of schools, if a comprehensive has setting for different subjects, how does that hold back the brightest children? They would be in the top sets for everything and have an education tailored to that level. Why do they have to be in a grammar school to access education at a suitable level?

M0stlyHet · 22/12/2016 16:58

I think it was Ernest Rutherford (physicist, also winner of the Nobel prize for chemistry) who described chemistry as "the stamp collecting end of science." Mind you, as a theoretical physicist, I would say that wouldn't I? (I do agree that physics favours the bright but lazy - the sum total of revision notes for A level physics fits on one side of A4, provided you know what you're doing. A level maths and further maths are even better - you don't need to remember anything because all formulae can be derived in real time in the margin provided you're fast enough.)

But Mistoff is a shining example of a case where I really hope that "on the Internet no one knows you're a dog", because if she really is a headmistress she's fucking up the chances of a whole generation of girls going through her school.

venusinscorpio · 22/12/2016 17:00

I very much doubt that you don't know a single woman who has ever been sexually assaulted, Mistoff. They just haven't told you about it. It's really not an uncommon thing to happen.

M0stlyHet · 22/12/2016 17:05

Actually back on the subject of men's versus women's performance, my undergraduate tutor (female professor of astrophysics) campaigned for blind marking of exams. Prior to her efforts on this front received wisdom was that women students were dull plodders who all got seconds while male students were either brilliant and got firsts or lazy and got thirds. Funnily enough once she got blind marking introduced the discrepancies disappeared and women started to get firsts in the same percentages as men. Horrifying to find that thirty odd years after I graduated the regressive attitudes she campaigned so hard against linger on.

DeviTheGaelet · 22/12/2016 17:27

Very interesting mostly
I'm not sure this stuff about extremes of intelligence is proven personally. I thought IQ in general was pretty questionable.
Oh by the way biology is not about learning lists, not even below 18. Unless it's being taught exceptionally badly.

Mistoffeleze · 22/12/2016 17:36

Mist if you encounter a student you know nothing about, do you make any educated guesses about how they need teaching based on their sex?

Of course I do or could but I've been speaking in extremely general terms, on averages determined from huge numbers. It isn't really my job to guess (educated or otherwise) as to a students needs nor is it the teachers. We can do a very brief assessment but much of our school's assessment is formative, ever changing and adapting to suit the child;s needs.

If they subsequently demonstrated a different set of abilities to those you normally expect of their sex, can they access an appropriate education?

'Yes', although this is an oversimplified answer. Each and every child can access an appropriate education.

My school streams for the core curriculum from Year 3 upwards. We keep the 'sets' extremely fluid and I question teachers if children don't appear to be swapping around their group. Styles of teaching are personal and as I have the luxury of appointing staff from large number of applicants, I usually appoint teachers who can adapt their style for each and every student, not simply one method for 'girl brains' and another for 'boy brains'.

Do you think that expectations and socialisation has any effect on the apparently innate tendencies of girls and boys?

Expectations have an effect on children. Students are more likely to rise to a challenge. Tell them their destined for mediocrity and that's where they'll usually end up. This isn't anything to do with boys vs girls.

Socialisation has an effect too. Children from high achieving social circles tend to achieve more themselves.

Are you talking more about girls / boys being told they'll be shite at something because they're a boy / girl. I'd imagine this has an equal effect on either sex and again isn't a feminist issue. That comes down to parenting / social influence. I think the days of girls being sent off from boys to do 'girl activities' are long gone. The choice is there and I think the reason girls tend to do things traditionally seen as for girls is not patriarchy in action, it's because they choose to do so. Children experiment. The mud kitchen, 'house' role pay area etc in our pre-school are equally occupied by boys and girls. Boys tend to grow out of wanting to play mummies and daddies and like more physical activities like who can bounce highest on the trampoline / competing with one another on the monkey bars whilst girls enjoy social interactions more and understanding their own emotional intelligence.

Ami

Do you think the IQ test is a perfect way of measuring intelligence? Or do you think it favours certain 'intelligences'?

It's by no means perfect and I said so myself a few posts ago. It is a good general indicator though.

I'm sure it does favour some "intelligences".

I'm not sure about different intelligences but it suits some styles of examinees more than others. Boys usually perform better than girls in the pressure of an examination with this reversed in coursework.

And how much of that is 'innate' and how much of that is down to social expectations?

We're finally going to get to the bottom of nature vs nurture and make MN famous?

I think a lot of it (more than half) is innate based on what I've seen from many different cultures, social backgrounds and generally large numbers of children.

You do though seem to think that there is [typically a] difference between male and female brains

Fixed that.

Absolutely. I see it each and every single day. I think those who don't are holding back women. We aren't the same. Embrace it and play to your / our strengths. This applies to each and every individual as opposed to diving people between the sexes.

I'm extremely organised (TF) , good at managing people and being assertive when necessary (TM) and understanding what makes them tick (TF). I enjoy the performance aspect of teaching (N?). I didn't fall into my career. It isn't a vocation for me. I looked at what suited my skills as well as something I'd enjoy enough to do for 30+ years.

with more extremes found in male brains where as female brains are more in the middle. A wider range in male brains compared to a narrower range in female ones.

Yes. This is proven fact.

As a headteacher, do you treat and expect the same from all your pupils

No. I treat each and every child differently and expect different things of each of them. The Primary Student of the Week last week was an autistic boy for 'commendable behaviour' by which I mean, he hadn't tried to throttle a classmate who was winding him up. This isn't a praiseworthy achievement for most children at the school.

do you expect boys to do better in certain subjects?

I do (if by 'expect' you mean 'think to be the most likely outcome) but my expectations have no effect as the children are encouraged and pushed to succeed in whatever they can.

M0stlyHet

because if she really is a headmistress she's fucking up the chances of a whole generation of girls going through her school.

Ignoring the doubting my occupation, three girls last year from a graduating class of 47 went to top Universities. One Oxford, on UCL and one Yale. 1 into medicine, one PPE and one Law-based course. One boy went to Oxbridge. There graduating class was pretty much 50:50 22 gir;s, I think.

I've been their head since they were first year of secondary. I think I'm doing okay.

The points difference is minimal for both A Levels or IB and GCSE as subjects are averaged out and the children play to their strengths but boys do tend to do better in traditionally male subjects and there are larger numbers of them there, the same for girls.

Blind marking also benefits boys as troublemakers were notably given worse grades by teachers who'd encountered their behaviour. I'm not sure what your point was. Are you?

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