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Original poster

...to feel depressed that only 7% of UK identify as Feminist?

999 replies

DioneTheDiabolist · 18/12/2016 18:30

www.fawcettsociety.org.uk/2016/01/we-are-a-nation-of-hidden-feminists/

7% of the population and just 9% of women in this country identify as feminist. I'm not saying that everyone should call themselves feminist, I care more about what people do, rather than the label they assign themselves. But I am Sad that the number is so low.

Given that most people believe in sexual equality, why do so many people not feel comfortable to call themselves feminist? And what (if anything) can we do about it?

OP posts:
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amispartacus · 22/12/2016 11:12

again i am not a feminist apparently because i choose to do the house chores and raise the kids and help with the business when i can and hubby 'only' has to work. but he has the stresses that i don't and vice versa

I don't think that's "not being a feminist".

I think being a feminist is about raising awareness and changing expectations. There's nothing wrong with taking time off, doing the house work etc. Nothing at all. What is wrong is being expected to do that and living in a society where women are expected to do something and men are expected to do different things.

i believe we have gender roles. but doesn't mean we have to follow them of course

I think a big thing is the gender roles and how they arise. We live in a society which does have gender roles and these do have massive implications for men and women.

Shouldn't gender roles be challenged so people aren't expected to do something because of their gender?

DeviTheGaelet · 22/12/2016 11:12

If you look at other examples of groups "men" hated, but still needed, we can see a clear difference. Can we not ?

I don't know what you mean. Give me a summary of your hypothesis about these other groups and the differences, backed up with some form of evidence (not your opinion) and I will entertain it. Otherwise stop trying to derail onto "others have it worse"

While you are at it, you could answer beyonds excellent question:
*
So. If you acknowledge that historically men treated women poorly, but not that there is evidence that (again, historically) men hate women, why do you think they did it? Shits and giggles?*

SpeakNoWords · 22/12/2016 11:13

Why term it being "shot down"? Don't you want to consider whether your views have a strong basis in fact? And whether your views are a good thing for women and society as a whole?

As a small business owner, could you tell me more about maternity leave and pay? I was under the impression that small businesses can claim back all of the statutory maternity pay from the government? Is that not the case?

amispartacus · 22/12/2016 11:13

Actually, you wont. Most people probably agree with a lot of what you have said

girl

Do you think that men should be expected to do things because they are men and women should be expected to do things because they are women?

amispartacus · 22/12/2016 11:16

girl

Do you want to talk about men and how you think they have it bad compared to women?

What changes would you like to see for men?

preparedtobeshotdown · 22/12/2016 11:21

no i agree wwhen you say should we fall in to the gender roles. no we don't have to but i feel we generally naturally do. because in my opinion it is a natural instinct and this is something that can change but will be hard. and i think this is down to what the individual/family wants and shouldn't be rammed down others throats when they choose to fulfil a 'gender role'.

now i don't deal with the financials, my dh and accountant deal with this. i just do general admin where possible. however yes i do believe you can claim maternity pay back from the government but i am not sure on the laws and regulations and amounts etc. but either way said woman gets paid regardless. so surely this is a huge thing! many other women in other countries wouldn't get this pay! surely this counts for something!

preparedtobeshotdown · 22/12/2016 11:22

i say shot down because while i believe in my own opinions many don't, which is fair enough. but many will literally shoot you down with their eyes or cut you off or insult you so i was preparing myself for that. but i am glad others have shared thoughts with myself.

preparedtobeshotdown · 22/12/2016 11:24

and i don't think people should do things just because they are a woman or man. but i do think we naturally fall into these jobs.

girlwiththeflaxenhair · 22/12/2016 11:24

Devi

I don't know what you mean. Give me a summary of your hypothesis about these other groups and the differences, backed up with some form of evidence (not your opinion) and I will entertain it. Otherwise stop trying to derail onto "others have it worse"

It's not a case of saying others have it worse - as I said my problem is with the use of the word "hate" as in "men hate women". I already explained that hatred has been expressed throughout history towards other groups with far worse consequences than western women have faced. If i use another example you say I am derailing, but then you ask me for examples, i already gave you one. What don't you understand ? Do you really think that if men hated women there would so many of them for a start ? Surely they would only keep the ones they wanted or needed.

amispartacus · 22/12/2016 11:25

no i agree wwhen you say should we fall in to the gender roles. no we don't have to but i feel we generally naturally do. because in my opinion it is a natural instinct and this is something that can change but will be hard. and i think this is down to what the individual/family wants and shouldn't be rammed down others throats when they choose to fulfil a 'gender role

I agree - nothing should be 'rammed down people's throats'.

A natural instinct? Maybe partly. There are other countries where there is more equality so maybe the environment has a role.

I think feminism is about changing the environment to make it easier for people to do what they want. Nothing wrong with being at home but it would be nice to live in an environment which makes it easier and acceptable for people to escape gender roles - men and women..

DeviTheGaelet · 22/12/2016 11:26

said woman gets paid regardless. so surely this is a huge thing! many other women in other countries wouldn't get this pay! surely this counts for something

Yes it counts for loads! I'm happy every day to be a woman in the UK.
Doesn't mean everything is perfect though. There is still more to do as per my huge lists Wink And we only have the paid maternity leave because of feminism.

BeyondIBringYouGoodTidings · 22/12/2016 11:26

prepared it's not so relevant now as DH is my ft carer, but when we first had children I was a sahm and he worked. That didn't make me not a feminist - his job paid more (for fewer hours too!) so it made sense.
You can make individual choices that you think don't 'gel' with feminism without not being a feminist.

Of course there are discussions to be had around why his (stereotypically masculine, physical) job paid more than my (stereotypically feminine, desk role) job, when both were big companies of similar size/outgoings etc. But I couldn't have solved this on my own, so we made the best decision for our family. The big thing is acknowledging why we made this decision and thinking about what could have been done to change it.

And also the thing that you have touched on in your post, that if a woman is not going to have children, it should have no impact on her career. Fwiw, when we had similar jobs, I actually earnt more than DH and we had decided he would be the one taking a break after mat leave finished (no shared leave then)

SpeakNoWords · 22/12/2016 11:26

So, yes it's a good thing for women (and men who would like children, too), that women can have paid maternity leave in this country. It's good that businesses don't have to shoulder the cost of this themselves.

You believe that people fall naturally into gender roles, but accept that some people don't. I don't believe that these roles are as natural as that, and that the majority of it is due to social conditioning. Either way, we both agree that at least some people don't want to conform to gender roles in our society. So it's important that these gender roles aren't enforced. Equally, no individual should be criticised for conforming to gender expectations.

amispartacus · 22/12/2016 11:27

but i do think we naturally fall into these jobs

I think feminism doesn't think that it is 'natural' and that a lot of the reasons why people fall into roles is because of the environment.

I don't see any harm in trying to change the environment. What's the worst that could happen?

preparedtobeshotdown · 22/12/2016 11:28

i agree with you amispartacus.

i for one enjoy doing my 'gender role jobs' as my friend puts it. but that is for me. and i accept many don't enjoy this. nothing wrong with that. i am happy end of. but to some that will just mean i am not a feminist...

this is just an argument that will never ever be agreed on or won by anyone.

amispartacus · 22/12/2016 11:28

So it's important that these gender roles aren't enforced. Equally, no individual should be criticised for conforming to gender expectations

This.

girlwiththeflaxenhair · 22/12/2016 11:29

I think feminism is about changing the environment to make it easier for people to do what they want

Strange name for it then ?

preparedtobeshotdown · 22/12/2016 11:29

yes speaknowords. thats what i am trying to get across. :)

girlwiththeflaxenhair · 22/12/2016 11:29

Equally, no individual should be criticised for conforming to gender expectations

Also you don't mean this - unless you remove all the negative expectations you currently feel men have to macho etc.

amispartacus · 22/12/2016 11:29

am happy end of. but to some that will just mean i am not a feminist

But if you think gender roles shouldn't be enforced, that makes you a feminist in my eyes. And others as well.

amispartacus · 22/12/2016 11:30

Also you don't mean this - unless you remove all the negative expectations you currently feel men have to macho etc

Feminism will benefit men as well.

preparedtobeshotdown · 22/12/2016 11:32

beyond, i agree with you also. this does not make you an anti feminist. which is what i amassing. but many have told me i am because i chose to stay home with the kids. i am agreeing with all of you. you too devi i agree we need feminism. but i think some other people outside of this discussion need to decide what feminism actually is.

like i said to my friend originally. pick our battles. some juts aren't worth it or are for another time/day.

SpeakNoWords · 22/12/2016 11:34

"unless you remove all the negative expectations you currently feel men have to macho"

I'm not sure what exactly you mean by this statement as something about the grammar is losing me. But I think you mean that men shouldn't be expected to be macho? I would agree with that. I also would agree that an individual man who conforms to the expectations of society for men shouldn't be individually criticised for that. I think you should be free to discuss why those expectations are harmful and why they should change though.

amispartacus · 22/12/2016 11:34

like i said to my friend originally. pick our battles. some juts aren't worth it or are for another time/day

Pick your batttles - oh yes, there are a lot of things that go on - MN is the perfect place to see attitudes and potential battle grounds.

DeviTheGaelet · 22/12/2016 11:35

I think there is a lot of misinformation about feminism out there. Words get twisted and also it's hard to understand the meaning of "the patriarchy" at first and it can sound very demeaning to men on the surface.
If you are a reader, try "how to be a woman" by Caitlyn moran. It's a very easy read (it's memoir style and shes done cool things) but she is much more eloquent about these concepts than I can be 😂