...to feel depressed that only 7% of UK identify as Feminist?

[DioneTheDiabolist]

www.fawcettsociety.org.uk/2016/01/we-are-a-nation-of-hidden-feminists/

7% of the population and just 9% of women in this country identify as feminist. I'm not saying that everyone should call themselves feminist, I care more about what people do, rather than the label they assign themselves. But I am that the number is so low.

Given that most people believe in sexual equality, why do so many people not feel comfortable to call themselves feminist? And what (if anything) can we do about it?

I suggested earlier in the thread that men have longer paternity leave that is taken at the same time as women, rather than the current parental leave where men can take part of the leave and the woman return to work

I'm not following what difference that makes to the issue of women's careers suffering due to breaks for for having children.

Taking 6-12 months off and coming back makes little difference - it's the taking the years off until they start school and/ or coming back at reduced days which causes careers to fall behind.

Yes, but it starts from the point of view that women are the carers and are expected to take time off, to some degree.

I'm not suggesting it's an immediate quick fix at all, it's part of a long term shift towards seeing women and men as equal carers for their children. Employers would see that men and women are just as likely to take time off when having children. More men would start to ask for part time hours to continue caring for their children. Then you'd eventually be in the position where both women and men are equally likely to take career breaks for children, that becomes normal.

To all the contributors on this thread. Thank you.

Unfortunately RL has happened. Sorry to start something that I can't be a part of ATM, but I will be back as soon as I can. In the meantime, I wish you strength, love, hope and happiness for the season.

Dionex

Perhaps non-feminists would do better to explain their position and not mis-explain feminism?

So only feminists get to say what a womans right ? And women who don't agree that those things should be rights at all - (e.g. abortion) should do what ?

Do you have to be a feminist woman to decide what women's right are ? How can any political movement claim to champion the rights of the people it represents when those same people are saying it doesn't represent them. Could you please explain that to me, because i don't get it. And do mention the suffragettes.

it might mean they have never experienced men's sheer unadulterated hatred of them, just because they were born female

I see no one, despite hating generalisations, has popped up to say that this statement is not true. Had i said "women love pink" on the other hand, something less controversial, well that wouldn't do would it ? This thread has largely been an object lesson in why I think the numbers are so low.

don't mention the suffragettes it should say.....otherwise we can conclude than anyone who uses the NHS should vote labour in eternity.

Sorry to hear that Dione, hope things are ok.

it might mean they have never experienced men's sheer unadulterated hatred of them, just because they were born female

It's really sad that some people have had experiences of men that make them feel that way, but it's exactly this kind of extreme 'feminist' comment that puts people off feminism! Even if not overt, the 'men are monsters' belief seems to pervade many feminists' opinions. Most women just can't accept this.

How can any political movement claim to champion the rights of the people it represents when those same people are saying it doesn't represent them

What -as a man - do you have against women discussing issues that affect them?

You seem to be confusing rights with issues. There are issues that affect women and these are being discussed on this thread. Personally I don't care that you don't believe in feminism - it's not something that's going to affect you, is it?

don't mention the suffragettes it should say.....otherwise we can conclude than anyone who uses the NHS should vote labour in eternity.

Don't mention the suffragettes?

Why not?

I'm not following what difference that makes to the issue of women's careers suffering due to breaks for for having children

There's been lots of explanations given on this and other threads. Iceland and Sweden are examples of how a culture and attitude can change if men become more involved at the start - and how a work culture can adapt to this shift.

it might mean they have never experienced men's sheer unadulterated hatred of them, just because they were born female

some men are like this, every single woman knows this in fact most of them but I'm probably a NAMALT advocate. There are a few that aren't and I try to remember them before I descend into sweeping generalisations.

But Feminist I am! and proud of it

Ami

So someone who discusses women's issues is a feminist ?

Perhaps non-feminists would do better to explain their position and not mis-explain feminism?

So only feminists get to say what a womans right ? And women who don't agree that those things should be rights at all - (e.g. abortion) should do what ?

Eh? I said 'they should explain their position'. Say what you think women's rights are, or aren't - thats what I was encouraging.

Perhaps non-feminists would do better to explain their position and not mis-explain feminism?

So the onus is on the 93% of the population to say why they are not reasonable ? Do you have the same opinions regards say Islamic State - that it's up to the other muslims to say why they don't share IS's ideas of what would be best for them ?

some men are like this, every single woman knows this in fact most of them but I'm probably a NAMALT advocate

There are a few that aren't

Bloody hell. If i went around believing that half the population hated me (with a few exceptions) then i wouldn't leave the house. By this logic, men hate other men more than hate women, this is what I don't get. Throughout history and to this day, men kill each other in far greater numbers than they kill women....no one says most men have unadulterated hatred for men though.

So feminism is just like IS in your eyes? Tell me girlwith, how many people have feminists killed, raped, enslaved, rendered homeless by systematic bombing campaigns?

It's not exactly doing a Godwin, but it's pretty damn close, and if you're going to make absurd comparisons like that then there really is no point engaging with you because you have demonstrated beyond a shadow of a doubt that you are incapable of rational debate. That's not a feminist/non-feminist thing: Lass declares herself not to be a feminist, but articulates her position very clearly, and we have a lot of common ground on issues like sexual violence and the harm done to women by some men insisting on using prositutes (and some differences on, say, women's disadvantage in the workplace). Girlwith, on the other hand, cannot formulate an argument and instead resorts to ridiculous hyperbole. I'm out.

Of course i don't think feminists are like IS - but then I think you know that. you just don't want to admit that 7% of the population cannot claim the moral high ground over the rest, and have used this an excuse not engage with the point it raises.

experienced men's sheer unadulterated hatred of them, just because they were born female

That to me, would be hyperbole FYI.

some men are like this, every single woman knows this in fact most of them but I'm probably a NAMALT advocate. There are a few that aren't and I try to remember them before I descend into sweeping generalisations.

This attempt to qualify this position makes me even less likely to want to identify as a feminist, as I can't just regard an 'all men hate us' comments as an emotionally driven ill thought through responses, but a carefully considered position that is willing o concede there may perhaps be a few 'good men' out there!

girl - oh ffs, I meant people who were actually participating in a discussion about feminism, some of whom would evidently rather (wilfully?) misconstrue feminism than put forward rational positions of their own.

Hopefully many 'non-feminists' are actually more like Lass and can articulate their own positions positively.

Another interesting phenomenon is how after one FWR regular pipes up to admit that one "non feminist" is a decent sort in contrast to the rest, another instantly follows suit ?

Some men do really hate women. Go look up MGTOW. Look at the comments after any article about rape. Look at the threats received by female MPs or any other women who say things in public (Mary Beard, Caroline Criado, Gina Miller, the list goes on).
I know it must be hard for men to accept that some members of your sex hate women, some rape us, some are violent to us. But sweeping it under the carpet and not discussing it so it doesn't make you feel uncomfortable about being a man isn't the answer. In fact that approach just shows that at best you are indifferent to women's issues, even if not actively "hating" us.

For example:
www.esquire.com/sports/videos/a44351/female-sports-reporters-mean-tweets/

'experienced men's sheer unadulterated hatred of them, just because they were born female

That to me, would be hyperbole FYI.'

Me too, TBH, because I've never experienced it. But then again, there's probably a lot of black people who haven't experienced racism. Which when we read about, we know that 'white' does not mean literally 'every white person' unless we're being deliberately bloody-minded. I think it's a similar (not claiming identical!) situation of systematic discrimination - legally in the past in the UK - plus a rump of people with ingrained prejudice.

Girl, it's not that "interesting" a "phenomenon". Lass is well known for engaging coherently on the FWR board.

Do I count as number three now? Do you have a bingo dabbler?

that it's up to the other muslims to say why they don't share IS's ideas of what would be best for them

As a man - what do YOU think is best for women?

You have denied that there is a gender pay gap.

Do you have an issue with women discussing the reasons why women in general are the ones who overwhelmingly do the bulk of the childcare and who tend to take jobs which means they can work around their children?

Do you have an issue with discussing reasons why men might not do this?

Do you have an issue with discussing male violence towards women?
Do you have an issue with women discussing how women are seen through the eyes of the media?

Do you have an issue with women discussing barriers that girls and women face within certain industries and making progress within them?

It's not about discussing what is BEST for women. It's about women discussing issues that predominantly affect them and hoping to see a culture change.

As a man, is that ok with you?

put forward rational positions of their own.

In order to put forward a "rational" position, one must first accept that society has a major problem regarding the way women are treated. Or have I misunderstood that as well ? People are arguing about they way changes should be implemented, they're saying that there isn't any need for the changes you seem to want but only have some vague idea of how to achieve. Again, I think you know this but try to shift the goalposts by attempting to make anyone who raises this point appear "unconstructive".