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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

...to feel depressed that only 7% of UK identify as Feminist?

999 replies

DioneTheDiabolist · 18/12/2016 18:30

www.fawcettsociety.org.uk/2016/01/we-are-a-nation-of-hidden-feminists/

7% of the population and just 9% of women in this country identify as feminist. I'm not saying that everyone should call themselves feminist, I care more about what people do, rather than the label they assign themselves. But I am Sad that the number is so low.

Given that most people believe in sexual equality, why do so many people not feel comfortable to call themselves feminist? And what (if anything) can we do about it?

OP posts:
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SpeakNoWords · 21/12/2016 19:02

What is the difference between feminism and "equality" that leads you to say that feminism is only taking? What "give" do women need to do for the sake of equality?

BoneyBackJefferson · 21/12/2016 19:36

CharlieSierra

In my experience FWR posters are very happy to share and explain their point of view. Questions which appear disingenuous may be met with the reading up suggestion, and why not?

Your experience and mine have been very different, the "go away and read" have even been when the questions have been relevant/on topic and was why the feminism101 topic was started.

I have also found it interesting that teaching feminism to boys is suggested in the way that it is and any suggestion that it should be taught differently is shot down.

If you want to teach something to someone you don't do it in such away that it puts them off the subject.

amispartacus · 21/12/2016 20:20

Equality is give and take, feminism is just take

Really...isn't about levelling the playing field, tackling inherent inequalities, inbuilt bias, social conditioning, the environment that makes life more difficult for women to achieve.

I don't see gay groups, disabled groups, groups tackling racism being told this when they try to tackle 'the system;.

And this

If you want to teach something to someone you don't do it in such away that it puts them off the subject

I think that's what the suffragettes were told.

amispartacus · 21/12/2016 20:23

It implies division, that women are inferior to men

Does it imply inferior? Or does it mean that 'the system' is geared to make life just a bit harder for women and that hurdles and barriers need to be identified and tackled?

Feminism does not imply inferiority. You can be as equal as anyone but live in a society that makes things harder for you for a number of reasons.

RufusTheSpartacusReindeer · 21/12/2016 20:23

Ds1 and i have had some heated debates about the suffragettes Sad

hotmail124 · 21/12/2016 20:54

DJBaggySmalls I agree, since Breitbart and the like started using the term feminazi which has been normalised in a lot of people's consciousness, the word 'feminist' has become taboo.

If you like having access to a vote, education, a range of jobs, contraception, abortion, domestic violence legislation, equal pay legislation then you're lucky. Because feminists fought hard for those rights for you.

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 21/12/2016 21:14

If you mean their careers are delayed when they take time off for children, well that's their choice and you're looking to make unfair adjustments to achieve equality of outcome

Their choice - is it? Is it a choice made from free will, without external pressure, societal expectations, social conditioning etc etc

Well let's park for a moment the idea that women can't make up their minds about anything what do you want to do about it other than complain it's not fair?

I never hear anything beyond it's not fair - What would you like ? All colleagues put their careers on hold until she gets back from maternity leave? Subsidise SAHMs to be SAHMS?

M0stlyHet · 21/12/2016 21:18

Upthread Misstoff said: "There's equally evidence showing a strong correlation between the number of women in STEM subjects compared to barriers to entry. Making STEM accessible, in equal cultures, in fact bursaries to women just 'cause they're wimmin hasn't helped. It's almost as if we're wired differently and the average woman is less likely to succeed in STEM subjects.... We can all be judged on our merits. Sometimes those merits are typically male attributes held by men, less frequently by women and vice versa. I'm a headmistress. The skills required are more often demonstrated by women and that's why approx 3/4 of teachers are female. As a headmistress, I see that there is a difference between the genders and it isn't due to conditioning from birth, it's intrinsic."

I work in STEM (physicist). Two things strike me as glaringly absent from the account above. The first is that the proportions of men and women going into STEM are amazingly culturally variable. I had a friend from the Caribbean who was stunned when she came here to do a PhD in computing to find how few women did computing here - in her home country it was seen as a good solid career, a route out of poverty and was done equally by men and women. I recently read a post by someone who lives (IIRC) in UAE, saying that over there science was seen as a suitable career for a woman - nice safe labs to work in, thoughtful, quiet work to do.

The other thing is that the male scientists I know come in a variety of personality types - and a great many of them are as far from hyper-masculine as you can imagine. They're shy, retiring types. It's simply not true, even were one to buy into the idea that science requires a stereotypically male brain, that even male scientists fit this stereotype. I frequently chat to my female colleagues about this - our take is more that because of the barriers we've had to overcome to get where we are, we've had to be arsey, bolshy, in your face, pushy types. Quieter, more retiring types will have fallen by the wayside on the way up. Fallen by the wayside in a way shy and retiring men in our profession do not!

You don't need a penis to do physics. And the visualisation skills needed to think about dress design and the topology of general relativistic spacetimes are remarkably similar (I am very good at both.)

I have to admit that when a woman tells me she isn't a feminist I always want to know which bits she doesn't like? The vote? The right (in theory if not in practice) to equal pay? The ability to have a bank account or mortgage in her own name without a male guarantor? The right not to be raped in marriage? The right to go to university?

And remember, if you are an anti-feminist woman, while you blithely tell us all feminism is no longer needed, Trump's government is taking away women's reproductive rights in the richest country in the world, which has spent a couple of centuries plus telling us how it has the best constitution in the world, the one which guarantees its people's political freedom. Nearer to home, if you're British like me, you might want to reflect on the fact that abortion is still illegal in part of Britain. One day you may wake up in a society where you suddenly realise all those rights feminists won for you have been taken away from you while you sleepwalked through life muttering anodyne and meaningless phrases like "I'm an equalist".

SpeakNoWords · 21/12/2016 21:21

I would like more paternity leave for partners, to be taken at the same time as the mother's maternity leave, not the current parental leave system where it's one or the other. Then men would be more likely to take the same time off as women, and so there would be less difference between men and women at that point. I think that this would mean less discrimination against women in the workplace, and also have a positive effect on men who would get to spend more time with their babies.

girlwiththeflaxenhair · 21/12/2016 21:38

And remember, if you are an anti-feminist woman, while you blithely tell us all feminism is no longer needed, Trump's government is taking away women's reproductive rights in the richest country in the world,

Isn't part of the problem here that "Trumps Govt". comprises women and was voted for by women (at least in part). Feminism is a political movt. that claims to represents the desires of all women, it obviously doesn't ?

LastGirlOnTheLeft · 21/12/2016 21:41

Part of me is happy so many women do not identify as feminist....it might mean they have never experienced men's sheer unadulterated hatred of them, just because they were born female. I have. And so I am proud to be identified as FEMINIST!!!

SpeakNoWords · 21/12/2016 21:42

I don't think it represents the desires of all women, I think that would be a very odd thing to claim. Feminism is about acquiring and protecting equal rights for women. There were plenty of women who were anti-suffrage, for example.

amispartacus · 21/12/2016 21:48

Feminism is a political movt. that claims to represents the desires of all women, it obviously doesn't

Does it? Or is that what you think?

It is a movement that wants to discuss and raise awareness of issues surrounding women and how society can change.

amispartacus · 21/12/2016 21:56

There seems to be some people who clearly aren't feminists explaining what feminism is to people who are feminists.

There must be a word for that. Grin

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 21/12/2016 22:02

There seems to be some people who clearly aren't feminists explaining what feminism is to people who are feminists

So non feminists should just shut up?

it might mean they have never experienced men's sheer unadulterated hatred of them, just because they were born female

No I have not and I do not buy into the notion that men as a class have sheer unadulterated hatred for women.

amispartacus · 21/12/2016 22:06

So non feminists should just shut up

No. But it is interesting to hear what non feminists think feminism is when feminists think it is something different.

And it's even more interesting when non feminists tell feminists what feminism is.

SpeakNoWords · 21/12/2016 22:08

Some men hate women Lass, and non-feminists don't need to shut up, of course not. It's ok surely to point out the oddness of non-feminists telling feminists what feminism is (especially when the non-feminists are coming out with odd definitions).

MontePulciana · 21/12/2016 22:08

I used to identify as a feminist until I saw the more extreme side. It wasn't for me I'm afraid. The silly head band thread was nail in the coffin. I'm happy for my DH to earn 10 times my salary and for me to do the baby tasks at night. It doesn't make me feel inferior. Don't like being told I'm weak because I don't want to chase a career. I love housework. And I'll buy my daughter pink dresses if I'm ever blessed enough to have one.

TheMortificadosDragon · 21/12/2016 22:09

Perhaps non-feminists would do better to explain their position and not mis-explain feminism?

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 21/12/2016 22:10

Feminism is a political movt. that claims to represents the desires of all women, it obviously doesn't ?

It is a political movement - what it is for and what it is supposed to do will depend on individual opinion.

I'm not sure about dismissing what you have said as being an incorrect interpretation given how often we see on FWR the comment about how a poster can't understand how any woman can't be a feminist. If that were genuine surprise then presumably a poster who says it must think feminism represents all women.

Of course there are posters who think any women who is not left wing is a handmaiden of the patriarchy.

Grilledaubergines · 21/12/2016 22:13

I don't identify as anything other than female. I refuse to be pigeon-holed into belonging to something, it's just a little bit needy.

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 21/12/2016 22:15

Perhaps non-feminists would do better to explain their position and not mis-explain feminism?

This is AIBU. I think most people have been setting out their opinions fairly succinctly. Just because you disagree with them does not mean they are mis-explaining.

Most liberal feminists get feminisim wrong according to radical feminists

amispartacus · 21/12/2016 22:17

lass

What do you think feminism is?
Do you think there are no issues that predominantly affect women in this country that need addressing?

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 21/12/2016 22:25

Don't like being told I'm weak because I don't want to chase a career

I don't think anyone has said or think that. The issue is that some posters think opting out of a career to have children has to be accommodated in some way should you want to opt in again so that you don't miss out compared to women who don't.

I love housework

And you are entitled to do so.

amispartacus · 21/12/2016 22:31

The issue is that some posters think opting out of a career to have children has to be accommodated in some way should you want to opt in again so that you don't miss out compared to women who don't

Or maybe...there should be less of an expectation that it is mainly the woman who does this and that maybe the man can do it as well?

Or maybe the woman opting out is given more flexible / different working etc to make the balance of child care / work life more easier so you can do both?

There has been plenty of discussion on recent threads about this - the issues and some solutions. The Icelandic model where both men and women take leave certainly seems to have made an impact there.