...to feel depressed that only 7% of UK identify as Feminist?

[DioneTheDiabolist]

www.fawcettsociety.org.uk/2016/01/we-are-a-nation-of-hidden-feminists/

7% of the population and just 9% of women in this country identify as feminist. I'm not saying that everyone should call themselves feminist, I care more about what people do, rather than the label they assign themselves. But I am that the number is so low.

Given that most people believe in sexual equality, why do so many people not feel comfortable to call themselves feminist? And what (if anything) can we do about it?

No Charlie I was very happy to explain my thought process and beliefs on the original thread. It gave everyone lots of ammunition to explain how I couldn't possibly be a MN approved feminist. I don't really think that re-hashing the argument would be a very productive process. I'm just not that naive anymore.

Nobodies stopping you (general you) posting though mist, even if you are told you do not belong. I could go along to the kennels and post about how I don't have a dog, I wouldn't belong but I wouldn't be breaking any rules

But generally posters are vagina owners and other vagina owners so your analogy doesn't really work unless you think one has to be a special type of vagina owner to have a valid opinion on issues that affect women.

Of course we often see on FWR that some vagina owners are told that not only are they not the right type of vagina owners but they even aren't vagina owners at all.

No Lass they're feminists, so going on FWR and saying I don't believe in feminism and feminists are wrong will tend to elicit a similar response to going on kennels and saying I can't stand dogs and dog lovers are wrong. It wouldn't be a popular view and some people might even ask you why you were there and bothering to post. Indeed some people might reasonably assume you'd gone there to be goady.

Your analogy still doesn't hold up. Feminism is a political and philosophical movement which affects , or seeks to affect women's lives. You don't have to support or believe a political or philosophical movement to be able to have an opinion on it.

Anyway what sort of feminism is one supposed to support or oppose?

The women as eternal victim never in control of her life version I have no time for- but equally I have no time for the "pro- sex industry " bunch either. Full economic opportunity for women , fine.

Feminism will continue to decline so long as Muslim women remain subjugated, isolated in dark Northern mill towns, represented by left wing politicians, long neutered with political correctness, conscience salving through pink headbands and Peppa Pig.

Although what tends to happen with immigrants is gradually they integrate and taken on the views of the liberal West so I am hopeful for even recently arrived muslims and women from sexist cultures that by coming here their lives will be improved and that they will adopt our values of fairness and equality for men and women.

As for feminism it has always had different adherents but we are all men and women united in wanting equality for men and women. now that might have meant you were either for or against direct action such as hunger strikes and throwing self under bus or even bombs back in the early part of the 1900s or by persuasion (feminists had different views then as now) but that does not mean it is some kind of lost cause. You can also be a left or right wing feminist too. We are all united in the common aims.

LassWiThe...

unless you think one has to be a special type of vagina owner to have a valid opinion on issues that affect women

Haha. Overgrown, I'd imagine!

user12345543422

No, feminism will continue to decline as it has achieved its objectives. This means moderate feminists can relax and think about equality for all (and let us stop pretending that feminism is good for men and equality for everyone). The ones which are left are the extremist, unable to let go and move on, self-destructive hard-liners. They drive away anyone not radical enough for them yet even they are slowly decreasing in number.

What has Islam to do with decreasing numbers of people who see themselves as feminists?

EnourmousTiger

We are all united in the common aims.

I think you're wrong there. I think a great example is someone I quoted in a previous post who said that as women take longer to pee, we should have twice as many toilets. That kind of nonsense makes me embarrassed. As I've said, feminism has achieved its aims and so, the hard-liners who are left are increasingly crazy and tend to be real men-hating weirdos.

As soon as a feminist can explain to me why MRA is such a derisive term, I'll perhaps understand their cause better. Until that time, I'll continue to view it as anti-man as opposed to pro-equality.

Mist why would you be embarrassed by measures to bring about true equality? I think the equality/equity graphic explains it very simply, so maybe take another look at that if you're struggling to grasp the concept.

mist

A lot of women do take longer in the loo than men for a variety of reasons

Not me .... I am a ninja urinater

I think it's because a lot of people think feminist means you need to burn your bra, stop shaving your legs and constantly be protesting about something.

If you actually set out what being a feminist is and didn't tag it with the word, most people would agree. A lot of people buy into the media perception and connotations, so if you remove that, they'd probably agree with the basic principles.

Rufus

I do. It's because it's the only peace and quiet I get and I take a book!

Charlie

So, you aren't talking about equality (according to "that graphic"). You're talking about equity. Take another look if you're struggling to grasp the concept.

I don't want a leg up (or to take two boxes to stand on) because I'm a woman. I want to be judged on my merits. I wouldn't decide to pursue a career in men's wrestling as I'd get my arse kicked. I play to my strengths and as such have done okay in life. For a start, I don't think men and women are the same mentally, physically or emotionally. That doesn't mean we're weaker, it means we have different strengths.

We have equality of opportunity thanks to feminists before us. If for some reason you don't, take someone to court. We can vote, own property, have an abortion etc. We generally do better at school, university and post uni. The battle has been won. What you want is equality of outcome. I don't want that. Why would anyone? That removes the want to work hard and be rewarded for your success.

I was talking to a right-on feminist the other week who honestly believed in the wage gap. She thought that women who have children or who work fewer hours due to their choices should have some form of financial bonus to make up for this. She thought Albright was correct when she asserted "there's a special place in hell for women who don't help each other" and that women should vote for Clinton purely because she was a woman. That does make me embarrassed. I think feminism is unfair and I'm often branded an MRA for suggesting so. Still, no one has ever given me a good explanation of why this is such a terrible thing to be despite feminism supposedly being for equality between the sexes.

MrsMattBomer

If you actually set out what being a feminist is...

The pretend version is equality between the sexes. That's covered by wonderful egalitarianism. The real version is equality of outcome, at the expense of men or as they're usually referred to, the patriarchy, rape apologists, toxic masculinity... I genuinely worry for my sons growing up in a world where they're seen by some as the root of all evil. I guess that makes me an MRA egalitarian.

"Media perceptions and connotations" seem to be borne out through experience on the internet (including MN) as well as real life encounters.

I have two sons. Nothing about feminism or the effects it may have on the world worries me as far as they're concerned, and I cannot see how it could cause fear and genuine worry. Plenty of other stuff causes me to worry for them, but not anything to do with feminism.

I don't want a leg up (or to take two boxes to stand on) because I'm a woman. I want to be judged on my merits

That's great. What if the system was biased against you and made things just a little bit harder?

There's evidence about STEM teaching in schools and at Uni which makes it harder for girls and women to make progress,

How STEM careers have inbuilt 'systems and processes' that make progressing in such careers just that more difficult.

Some people and groups face more hurdles and barriers in life. Feminism (and other activist groups ) helps identify those hurdles, challenge perceptions and overcome those barriers.

It would be great if we could all be judged on our merits and our merits alone. But life isn't like that. Systems etc can make 'the playing field' just a little bit fairer.

We generally do better at school, university and post uni. The battle has been won

Has it? So there's no judging of women, no generalisation about women, no domestic violence, no rape culture, no 'mummy' penalty, no judging on looks, no pressure on women to work / not work / look after kids / be the perfect mother?

It's all in your head ami, caused by your feminist victim mentality no doubt. (I reckon that'll be the response...)

I think it's incredibly complacent to sit back and say the battle has been won, when some of the changes have only been around for a matter of a couple decades. Are we quite certain there won't be any backwards-sliding of hard fought rights?

And as for it affecting boys...

I want my DS to grow up in a culture which respects women. Where he is not bombarded with images of porn and he gets an impression of girls through that. Where women aren't objectified constantly. Where he is 'allowed to cry, to show his emotions and is not expected to conform to 'manly things' . Where if he wants to work part time, to take long paterntiy leave - it's fine. Where he and his partner will share childcare responsibilities, housework etc without him thinking it's 'women's work' etc etc.

That's got little to do with rights and battles but a lot to do with expectations.

I think he's getting there slowly. He does recognise sexism and we do discuss these issues. He also sees it being modelled to him - and that's probably the best way to get him to see what can be done.

amispartacus

There's evidence about STEM teaching in schools and at Uni which makes it harder for girls and women to make progress

There's equally evidence showing a strong correlation between the number of women in STEM subjects compared to barriers to entry. Making STEM accessible, in equal cultures, in fact bursaries to women just 'cause they're wimmin hasn't helped. It's almost as if we're wired differently and the average woman is less likely to succeed in STEM subjects.*

I'd love to know what these inbuilt systems and processes are though. I did experience sexism when I began working in STEM (academia) several decades ago. However, as I've said, the battle is won. The furore around Tim Hunt is a wonderful example of how feminism can go wrong.

We can all be judged on our merits. Sometimes those merits are typically male attributes held by men, less frequently by women and vice versa. I'm a headmistress. The skills required are more often demonstrated by women and that's why approx 3/4 of teachers are female. As a headmistress, I see that there is a difference between the genders and it isn't due to conditioning from birth, it's intrinsic.

*What do you mean by 'make the playing field a little bit fairer. Women get to stand on two boxes or specific legislation making it illegal to discriminate based on sex? I'm all for the latter.(1)

There is judging of men and women.

There are generalisations about women and men.(2)

There's domestic violence toward men and women.

There's no such thing as rape culture.

I have no idea what a 'mummy penalty' is. (3)

All people are judged on their looks and life choices. Parenting vs work, looking after children etc. Men and women alike. That is why I'm an egalitarian.

(1)I think it was Finland. Certainly a Scandinavian country.

(2) don't suggest that this is something feminism will solve. Toxic masculinity and notions that men are harming themselves as well as women is tired, boring and unsubstantiable and what make me worry for my sons - being blamed for everything wrong in society isn't pleasant.

(3) If you mean their careers are delayed when they take time off for children, well that's their choice and you're looking to make unfair adjustments to achieve equality of outcome.

speaknosense

Quite a low blow, making predictions as to my response with a slightly sneering tone.

Are you suggesting that although we've 'won' and got what we wanted, we may not in the future so should carry on campaigning for changes already effected in case they're reversed?

You're logic is incredible!

Your son can acheieve all those things (as did my DH) through not being an arsehole. He doesn't have to become a feminist to not treat women objectively.

Anyway, I'll just leave this hear. Hope it's not oppressing any men.

As a headmistress, I see that there is a difference between the genders and it isn't due to conditioning from birth, it's intrinsic

I'm surprised to hear a headmistress say that. Teaching is definitely one area where there is still a lot of hidden messages towards boys and girls, how teaching styles affect those people (especially girls) who lack confidence, who don't want to put their hands up, who worry about presentation etc. I hope that you encourage your teaching staff to ensure that their teaching methods help girls to learn.

I have no idea what a 'mummy penalty' is

economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/12/17/the-mommy-penalty-around-the-world/

If you mean their careers are delayed when they take time off for children, well that's their choice and you're looking to make unfair adjustments to achieve equality of outcome

Their choice - is it? Is it a choice made from free will, without external pressure, societal expectations, social conditioning etc etc

There's domestic violence toward men and women

Overwhelmingly towards women.

There's equally evidence showing a strong correlation between the number of women in STEM subjects compared to barriers to entry

Plenty of evidence why girls are put off science. Physics being one. Seen as a 'male' subject. Mainly boys in the class. Male teachers. A culture where the teachers don't see girls as being there. Much harder for girls to form learning networks.

As for a STEM career, a notoriously hard area if you work part time and take time out. Which is something that women are more likely to do. It's a good thing to encourage change in a culture to ensure that women who do this can still purse a STEM career.

hbr.org/2015/03/the-5-biases-pushing-women-out-of-stem

My apologies, although you've descended to my level with the wordplay on my name

Not sure what Justin Bieber in his pants has to do with anything.

Anyway, I'll just leave this hear. Hope it's not oppressing any men

It's a picture of a man and his body. I think it's supposed to show that men get objectified to.

Yes, there are pictures of men out there like that. But I bet there's a lot more images of women out there on a daily basis. Just look at the DM. The Sun. The Daily Star, Many TV adverts

All people are judged on their looks and life choices. Parenting vs work, looking after children etc. Men and women alike. That is why I'm an egalitarian

Do you think that Mums are judged more than Dads when it comes to parenting and work, looking after children?

One look at MN would lead one to suspect women are judged far more than men.

So we don't need feminism? Women are fine and dandy?

Every single woman in my life has been either assaulted or sexually assaulted by a man.

Raped, stabbed , punched, kicked, slapped. Murdered.

I was in an abusive relationship aged 14 with a man. He regularly beat seven shades out of me.
Once he beat me badly and held me down in the road to be killed.

He was fined £40.

Not even community service.

But Oswin men suffer domestic violence too. And there is no such thing as rape culture! Definitely.

7% of the population and just 9% of women in this country identify as feminist

Doesn't that mean that more men identify as feminists than women do? Or are they including children in their 7% assessment?

I don't think those figures are necessarily depressing. "Feminism" is a toxic word for many people. It implies division, that women are inferior to men. Many, many more people would state that they believe in gender equality. Feminism is not about equality per se, of course - it is about the advancement of women's rights. This is the reason why many people who support the advancement of women's rights in the belief that men and women should be treated equally cannot describe themselves as a feminist.

Equality is give and take, feminism is just take.