To be annoyed that private schools have charity funding.

[Olympiathequeen]

They are not charities, they are businesses.

They do little or nothing for the local community.

They benefit by about £750 mil. They part fund bursaries for around half that amount.

Leaving them with a tidy little £300+ million profit at the expense of the taxpayers.

That money is desperately needed for public schools.

WTAF is the government doing?

Iam.... but that's your choice...this is an interesting debate but some of your posts are really unhelpful....aka the 'thick rich Jonny' type of argument. It's so easy to make these kind of vitriolic statements.

"Crikey iamadaftcoo, did it not occur to you that private school pupils have it drummed into them relentlessly that they are incredibly privileged to receive their education whether that's through being born rich, through receiving a bursary or scholarship on merit, or through their parents' sacrifices? Even if the parents don't, the schools themselves most certainly do and a fair few proportion of the pupils will let the others know too if necessary."

Not in my experience, frankly.

And we're once more trying to justify the unjustifiable by talking about how private schools teach social responsibility. Good ones do. But that goes for all good schools, regardless of sector.

Dinosaur- do you not think you benefit at all from educating the non private school stratum?

"Crikey iamadaftcoo, did it not occur to you that private school pupils have it drummed into them relentlessly that they are incredibly privileged to receive their education whether that's through being born rich, through receiving a bursary or scholarship on merit, or through their parents' sacrifices? Even if the parents don't, the schools themselves most certainly do and a fair few proportion of the pupils will let the others know too if necessary."

The private school I went to drummed it into the pupils that they were exceptionally able and that God had given them exceptional intelligence. Many of the children at my school believed that their parents had sent them private because they were simply too clever for state schools.

It was a shock when reality hit either at university or in the workplace.

Really Tired that's incredibly sad to hear.

My former private school, with which I am still very closely involved as a business advisor, mentor to pupils, and donor, is clearly very different. It is non-selective - which helps to a certain extent - but I can say with absolute certainty that if any of the kids show signs of privileged arrogance of the type described then they would be cut down to size by the staff only if the other kids hadn't done it first. The school wouldn't survive without a keen sense of understanding its place in 1) its own community and 2) society in general.

There is no moral justification for that, either. Just more "I can afford it and I want to do it"
Actually, people who 'do that' - use their extra cash to buy an expensive house in the catchment of a good state school (rather than stay in their cheaper one out of catchment), and pay tutors, and then complain about private schools are hypocrites, so it's a bit more than 'I can afford it and I want to do it'.

And surely, the overall impact of the existence of private schools on education in a given country is part of the ethical argument. Apparently, according to the research, it improves outcomes overall.

That surely varies between schools? I was state educated but my dh went to private schools. I object to private schools on moral grounds, but I can't say my dh and most of his school friends lack social responsibility. I remember talking to him/questioning him about this in the early days, and the overwhelming message from him was that he knew he was very lucky. His latter years were wonderful by all accounts but less so the early years - but despite the questionable (imho) choices on schooling his parents made for him at times I can vouch that he has turned out to be a well-rounded and dare I say 'normal' individual

A few people I met at university certainly lacked social responsibility but whether that stemmed from their schools or whether they were just natural dickheads I couldn't say.

This thread shows that all private and state schools are different. You cannot generalise.

And surely, the overall impact of the existence of private schools on education in a given country is part of the ethical argument. Apparently, according to the research, it improves outcomes overall.

Actually, I think it's the existence of excellent schools that improve overall outcomes and social mobility. It is unfortunate that there is such a strong causal link between 'private' and 'excellent', and it's scandalous that 'terrible' almost always means 'state' but the answer cannot be to saw off a significant chunk of 'excellent' from the system.

We all benefit from having excellently educated people in society and if the state proves time and time again that it is chronically incapable of delivering excellence consistently to everyone who wants it, it is insidious to deny it to those willing to pay through the nose for it simply because not everyone can.

I went to a private school..
M&D went without nice holidays to pay for the fees..

I always remember the first lesson on the first day. Our Form teacher said:-

"You are not here because you are clever.
You are not here because you are better than others
You are here because someone else is no here.
That is not fair.
Life is not fair
Learn and understand that"

He was right then.. and it is still true.

God, I hate "life is not fair, get used to it"

All that does is entrench unfairness. Why didn't he say "Life is not fair- we are going to prepare you to go out and fight to make it fairer"?

I think that is exactly what Alan Bennett, whom I misquoted earlier, meant.

Itsnoteasy, I would agree with your tutor if he continued and his next lines attempted to inspire you to do something about life's injustices.

I'm not having a go at you personally, but things like 'going without nice holidays' is not really hardship and can rub people who really did/do experience hardship up the wrong way. And again, it is a choice they made.

*However much I might wish to be, I am not the boss of this thread grin

But can I beg people not to use the "jealousy" or "chip on the shoulder" cards? *

You would have fitted in well in the GDR. You could have imposed serious punishments on those that didn't do as you told them to.
You criticise posters for using phrases like 'chip on the shoulder' but you make no comment when posters such as iamadaft describes children as 'thick rich shits' or whatever her charming phrase was.

"You criticise posters for using phrases like 'chip on the shoulder' but you make no comment when posters such as iamadaft describes children as 'thick rich shits' or whatever her charming phrase was."

She didn't. She said that some of the privately educated adults she went to university with were. I don't think anyone would deny that some private schools are excellent at getting the best out of some.....unpromising material!

Dinosaur- do you not think you benefit at all from educating the non private school stratum?

Well of.course I do, as a state educated person myself. And the tax I pay, as does everyone who works, contributes to this.

So why were you complaining about your taxes paying for education places you're not using?

iamdaft I was thinking more if the educational charity similar to the Elizabeth Nuffield etc which gives grants for students for childcare etc. Lol.

Presumably those of you feeling good about sending your child into the state, also avoid reading with them, buying books etc thus minimising your advantage. Whereas Someone else might chose to pay someone to do that for them due to personal circumstances. A private education may mean a tutor, it may mean extra support for a struggling child, or a child with special needs. It doesn't necessarily mean Eton!

I have to say my child with special needs was served very badly in the state system and would have happily paid to go elsewhere for better provision if it had been available here.

Like Iamdaft I also live in SE London. Unlike her I did not send my dc to our nearest state secondary school. This turned out to be just as well since if I had dd3 would have had to move in the middle of her GCSEs since the school was closed down. I could have kept them in the state sector by sending them to selective schools (they had places) but I preferred the local independent school. Interestingly none of any of their classmates from primary, which was our nearest school, went to the failing secondary referred to earlier. I think there are fewer parents prepared to actually sacrifice their dcs education than this thread might suggest. The local state school is not usually bad, at least outside London. I don't know how old iamdaft's dc are - I would guess she has chosen her house with care to avoid a situation such as mine.

An education charity can become a private company ...The college of law was an educational charity. It got permission from the secretary of state to sell itself to a private equity company. The proceeds of the sale had to be put into a seperate education trust that did charitable things in the legal educational sphere and the college was then run as a for profit education provider. I can't imagine many private schools could or would go down this road, but some of the more famous ones could probably meet their founding charities aims better this way and would have a strong enough brand to run for for profit.

Don't believe I was complaining particularly. Simply pointing out that I'm already contributing whilst not taking up a state place. I'm not asking for that money back. The op is making the point that 'her' hard earned taxes shouldn't be subsidising private education (a few hundred quid a term) i am pointing out that I am already contributing over and above this for an unused state school place. And of course the private sector does save the government money. But tbh I don't really care. Its the entitled 'my taxes bit' thats annoying. As all that work pay them. Personally though, if it stops the whingers, I'm happy to forgo the tax break (not that its possible for a lot of schools) and then there is no animosity ..... or obligation from the private schools with regard to what the government think they should be providing to others. No doubt people will then find something else to moan about in terms of private education though

Yup. I chose to send my DD private. I wasn't prepared to make her a social experiment in the school we were given.

YANBU

some of our top private schools are hugely wealthy how they help the community I am not sure haven't seen much evidence of this

and I really do question what non selective private schooling is

from peoples experiences I know its simply we will take most children but not all and if they don't fit in they are gone

Fortunately I was able to teach my child myself, haute couture as it were. Presumably that too is sneered at. Yes she did better than her peers, and was so much more unpromising material.

from peoples experiences I know its simply we will take most children but not all and if they don't fit in they are gone

And thats a choice people make too.