To be annoyed that private schools have charity funding.

[Olympiathequeen]

They are not charities, they are businesses.

They do little or nothing for the local community.

They benefit by about £750 mil. They part fund bursaries for around half that amount.

Leaving them with a tidy little £300+ million profit at the expense of the taxpayers.

That money is desperately needed for public schools.

WTAF is the government doing?

Not dense Iamdaft. But your user name is very telling.

If you're going to insult me dinosaur you could at least explain why :)

Don't you think calling people dense is insulting? Or at least your attempt to be?

To be honest though, comparing private education to buying yourself a nice car really doesn't cut it as a thoughtful or incisive analogy so that needed to be challenged. I can set out all the arguments why these are qualitatively different types of goods but I'll assume we all understand that (despite some evidence to the contrary!) so that we can have a proper discussion.

Although claiming people are jealous doesn't help the quality of that discussion either.

Perhaps the problem is that while private education is absolutely fine in a free market, it is completely impossible to justify morally. Lots of things aren't- that's part of the world we live in. So if people try, they have to scrabble around for arguments. Much better to use my dd's pony line.

The problem is, for as long as there is disparity of income there will be ways in which richer people choose to spend their money that others cannot. Education is one, cars is another.

But there is no clear cut line between what is 'acceptable' and what isn't. Healthcare? Food/nutrition? Like education both are strong determinants of life chances but are we seriously saying that because not every family can afford the best nutrition (or, indeed, prioritise it) then it shouldn't be an option for those that can?

And the problem with jealousy is that because 93 percent of primary and secondary education in the UK is state-funded it becomes a political issue, and some politics of the left trades on jealousy and spite as much as the right trades on fear. It is a very legitimate factor in this debate because it does shape the landscape that education has to operate in.

What about private healthcare analogy. Does that not cut it either? Although I choose to send one of my children to private education because I can afford to and I want to. I also pay tax which contribute to state school places. I don't really care about the morals of it all. People move heaven and earth to move house or lie to get their children into a decent state school, top up that education with expensive tutors, and then moralise over those who use private education. Its really no bloody different at all.

I'm lucky enough to not have enough money to have to decide whether I should send the kids to private. Though I would like to think that I wouldn't even if I did have the chance.

But I do earn enough to live in the catchment of highly sort schools where the average house price is about 40% more than the city wide average. And you can tell. Should I deliberately choose to live in a cheaper area?

I think the problem with the "abolish private schools" argument is that if you follow the logic through to its conclusion you end up with communism. (Of course, no one had any advantages over each other in the USSR....) Or you have to accept that there will always be a discrepancy between outcomes of the same calibre of person dependent on a host of factors, and it's just a question of where it is appropriate to draw the line.

"People move heaven and earth to move house or lie to get their children into a decent state school, top up that education with expensive tutors, and then moralise over those who use private education. Its really no bloody different at all."

Except that most people don'5 actually do that.

But I agree with you."Because I can afford it and want to" is the only possible argument. The same, incidentally, applies to private health care.

'Because I can afford to and I want to' is at least honest and fair enough. The number of times I've heard a variation on a 'we/my parents had no choice' story to explain school choices... You did have a choice, no one can force you to spend ££ or to send your child to a school you don't want. Sometimes it was a difficult choice, and sometimes I would have done the same but the choice existed and pretending it didn't annoys me.

Interesting thread

I live in an ok part of SE London. Schools weren't even on my radar tbh. My DC go to the local school, whatever that may be. None are particularly "good".

They do Bertrum. Many people do move or lie just for that reason.

Not that I care much about that either. We all do what we can for our kids within our means.

Dinosaur -I am not saying that nobody does- just that most people don't/can't do that.

There is no moral justification for that, either. Just more "I can afford it and I want to do it"

Some private schools are also operate quasi-investment vehicles/tax avoidance schemes. So a grandparent can make a huge down payment to be set against future fees, thus passing that cash on whilst avoiding a hefty whack of inheritance tax.

Dinosaur you were not contributing towards a place you didn't use, any more than a tax player without children does, or a person whose children are grown up. You are paying taxes towards education of the next generation (which everyone requires and benefits from) not toward one particular school place for your own offspring.

We all do what we can for our kids within our mean

Yes and I see teaching them about social responsibility as part of that.

Thats fine teaching them social responsibility. But for me that doesn't include sending them to my local school, which is crap. I can teach them social reaponsibilty in many other ways. You however, can do as you want.

Some paid for our education when we were young. When we pay for a state schools through our taxes we are just passing on someone else's generousity.

The super rich who would never consider using a state school benefit by having state educated servants. It helps if the cleaner can read a bit. Many people with companies employ state educated people.

Private education generates jealousy because in 98% of cases private school kids have done nothing special to deserve such a lavish education. A typical private day school spend roughly 3 times the amount on a child as a state school. They haven't earnt their education except for choirsters or maybe some young actors/ actresses. It's been an accident of birth.

The contribution is still there mistress. And by using state I personally don't pay anymore, by using private, I pay extra. Although if I hadn't used private I would have moved into the catchment of one of the better schools and taken up a place there.

"We all do what we can for our kids within our mean

Yes and I see teaching them about social responsibility as part of that."

iamadaftcoo, are you implying that understanding social responsibility and being privately educated are somehow mutually exclusive?

That's how it reads to me. If so, that's actually really insulting.

Well sorry but that is what I was implying yes.

This was actually one of the things I spoke to with DH before we had children because if he'd wanted to privately educate that would have been a deal breaker for me.

Thats fine for you iamdaft. Your life, your choice. Actually the private school my dc use place a lot of emphasis on social responsibility. But you can believe, and choose to do, as you wish.

Crikey iamadaftcoo, did it not occur to you that private school pupils have it drummed into them relentlessly that they are incredibly privileged to receive their education whether that's through being born rich, through receiving a bursary or scholarship on merit, or through their parents' sacrifices? Even if the parents don't, the schools themselves most certainly do and a fair few proportion of the pupils will let the others know too if necessary.

One of the great advantages that independent schooling brings in their quest to produce rounded, complete individuals is exposure to far more than just the curriculum. Social responsibility is a HUGE part of this, often linked to the charitable activities the pupils undertake as described upthread.

You are entitled to a dislike of private education for ideological reasons, but I find your implication rather breathtaking for its closed-minded prejudice, if it's not just based in ignorance.