To be annoyed that private schools have charity funding.

[Olympiathequeen]

They are not charities, they are businesses.

They do little or nothing for the local community.

They benefit by about £750 mil. They part fund bursaries for around half that amount.

Leaving them with a tidy little £300+ million profit at the expense of the taxpayers.

That money is desperately needed for public schools.

WTAF is the government doing?

"Fortunately I was able to teach my child myself, haute couture as it were. Presumably that too is sneered at"

Why would it be?

This thread seems to have become all about envy and jealousy!

Money buys privilege. It always has and it probably always will.

We live in a rich (albeit with massive debts!) country and we are benefitting from the privilege of living here. Our children are afforded the right to attend school until the age of 18. To have that privilege would be beyond the wildest dreams of many folk in other, less wealthy, countries. So should we not provide schools for our children, but give the tax revenue instead to a less wealthy country? Why should our children be so privileged if others cannot be treated the same?

Should we/could we all be equal? No. That experiment has been tried and it failed. If money is taken from the wealthy to the point where their financial circumstances are equal to everyone else's, what would be the point in anyone struggling, making sacrifices, taking risks, working their arse off in order to succeed and make money? What would be the point if there was no reward?

The fact is that some people have more money than others, for many different reasons; that will always be so. It follows therefore that some people will always be able to afford things that others cannot.

Lots of naivety defensiveness and bitterness on here on both sides of the argument

You can go to private / public school and have a strong sense of social responsibility. Of course you can. with privilege comes great responsibility.

"This thread seems to have become all about envy and jealousy!"

Please could you point to one single post that suggests this for a second????????

Bertram
I have sarcoidosis.. that's not fair
I am a manic depressive.. it buggered my career.. that's not fair
I am dyslexic.. again didn't help.. that's not fair..
I am tone deaf and can't sing.. that's not fair

Nothing in the world will compensate for those things against someone who is healthy etc etc.. but being jealous of those who are healthier and richer than I am won't make me better off. Neither will giving away everything I have to alleviate poverty. Although very wealthy by compared to many, I don't have anywhere near enough to make any worthwhile difference. I don't have the political skills to change the world.. (again something that is not fair).

As to my parents, they made a choice to do their best for me as a child. A lot of parents don't do that.. again that's not fair. Mum used to take notice of my homework and stand over me to make sure I did it. Again many parents don't take so much care of their children. That is not fair on the children. How does a teacher compensate for that in any school?

Take away private schools and parents who can and want to will get round the attempt to control them somehow. Again life is not fair. And any politician who says they can change such things is lying.

'but being jealous of those who are healthier and richer than I am won't make me better off. "

No of course it won't. That's why this thread is not about jealousy.

But the tone of the OP is redolent with jealousy

Oh, sorry. I must be reading a different OP. Could you direct me to the one you're reading, please?

The OP I read was about the fact that private schools have charitable status, and because they not behave like charities they do not deserve to be treated like charities.

The charitable purposes have been part of our law for a very long time, and if education ceased to be one of them, there would I think be wiser consequences than the loss of certain tax advantages. You might think it's all about posh wanders at Eton but what about the schools which have been set up using g charitable status to pioneer educational innovation for kids with sn for example? You could end up throwing a lot of very important babies out with the bath water if you stop education being a charitable purpose. A foolish and ignorant position in my view.

Bertram you post comments on Mumsnet almost daily about the immorality of private education and anyone who uses it, and how proud you are that your dc go to state schools.
Yet you frequently post about what goes on in private schools, how entitled the students ate etc. since your childre go to state schools from where do you get all this first hand knowledge about private schools?

"Yet you frequently post about what goes on in private schools, how entitled the students ate etc."
I have never said that private school pupils are universally entitled. I have said that some are. Actually, I don't think I even said entitled. I think I said something about a self confidence that can tip over into arrogance. As to how I know, my social circle is one where private education is rather more common than the norm.

"almost daily about the immorality of private education and anyone who uses it, and how proud you are that your dc go to state schools." Incidentally, the only truth here is that I think private education is immoral. I do not think people who use it are. And I am not proud that my children go to state schools.

I think a country which banned private education would be doing something immoral. A country which values freedom does not insist all children are educated by the state.

I don't see any jealousy in the OP.

I think people object to education not being a level playing field with equal opportunities for all young people no matter what their background or family wealth. That isn't "jealousy", it's justified annoyance.

I agree it is not about jealousy

That money can buy you what should be a fundamental right for all children a good education isn't fair neither is it fair that in parts of the country it is bought in a different way by what catchment you live in

It's not about jealously; I'm not levying any bad thought or woe-betide-me-chip-on-my-shoulder to those individuals that attended or send their children to privately funded schools. I have an ideological objection to education being a privilege and not a right and in application, that attending a comprehensive school leaves you at a disadvantage in society.

Similarly, I am against the concept of private healthcare, but feel that it's not a direct comparison (and perhaps not worth even saying, but as it has been...) as ultimately a BUPA hospital is not a like for like replacement for the NHS (broadly, elective vs. emergency care) like sending your child to Wellington College is versus whatever comprehensive. Healthcare also isn't a defining factor for the lack of diversity like you find when I attended two Russell Group Universities at under- and postgrad. There, I found that the vast majority had entirely different upbringings to me, but very similar to each other. This has continued in the workplace.

In my first year at Uni (2008), I sat at dinner with hall friends, who were debating whether it was right for my parents (a PA and EMT) to have had children because we lived in a council house and they didn't pay for my education or experiences that they believed had positioned them above me. Of course I've met arseholes from all backgrounds but when society is so skewed in favour for those privileged by money, I don't think it's morally and ethically acceptable to say "life isn't fair just accept it" if that means children continue not to live out their full potential because of their parent's bank accounts.

I used private healthcare as I wanted access to treatment the NHS does not provide. I still use the NHS for general care.

Some people use private schools because they want something different to the state offering. For example ballet school, Steiner schools or religious school.

Free schools were supposed to fund such schools, but the level of control the state wants is too high a price.

I do not independent schools banned and I don't care about their charitable status. The biggest unfairness is the variation of quality of state schools. It is hypocrisy that rich people can buy an expensive house and polish their halo that they are using state schools.

A child on fsm is less likely to attend a good state school than a more privileged child.

It is hypocrisy that rich people can buy an expensive house and polish their halo that they are using state schools.

Totally

I'm all in favour of private schools. If they didn't exist my sensitive, clever daughter would be condemned to attend a school so rough doors are double locked during lessons, police regularly patrol corridors and aggressive outbursts towards staff are commonplace. No. I daily feel blessed as I watch her flourish and grow in confidence at the school she was lucky enough to be accepted at. She was selected as much for her personality as her brains. I'm a single (working) mum and we were awarded a 90% bursary. Thank heavens we had a means to escape. (And the state school is a rural one before you think I'm talking inner city)

Classroom doors are double locked? I don't believe that for a minute would be a massive health and safety contravention. The community police officer regularly goes about our school, I suppose that could be called a patrol. Did she ever attend this hellish school or is this anecdotal?

I am glad your daughter is at a school she is happy at. What about all the other parents' children though, are they just not sensitive enough to worry about?

In my first year at Uni (2008), I sat at dinner with hall friends, who were debating whether it was right for my parents (a PA and EMT) to have had children because we lived in a council house and they didn't pay for my education or experiences that they believed had positioned them above me.
Is that so, ebop?
In my first year in my first job I sat in the canteen and there were people sneering at anyone they perceived to be 'posh' and asking them if 'daddy' had got them their job and if anyone was made redundant it should be the 'poshies' as 'mummy and daddy' could pay for them.

"I'm all in favour of private schools. If they didn't exist my sensitive, clever daughter would be condemned to attend a school so rough doors are double locked during lessons, police regularly patrol corridors and aggressive outbursts towards staff are commonplace"

Aren't all children sensitive and special? Why is your precious snowflake extra special?

A lot of school security is a historical hangover from the Dunblane tragedy. I don't believe there are many state schools like you describe. The lack of security in a private school is a lack of safeguarding rather than because private schools are at less risk. An Islamic terrorist would find it easier to attack a private school without security measures.

The police visit both my children's school. They educate the children on staying safe and talk about topics like stranger danger. The police want a positive relationship with the public.

Believe or not there are private schools which have a drugs problem.

The main doors into the school are double locked. You can enter the reception area by being buzzed in but go no further. I have visited the school , which is a lovely new building. One of the first comments made by the deputy head was "we had the toilets built in sight of the reception so no one can be ambushed or jumped on". A child (year 7) was outside a classroom being screamed at by a teacher. He was smirking and not the least bothered. One classroom we entered, an English lesson was going on, a year 10 boy verbally cheeked us and neither the English teacher or the deputy head thought it inappropriate. When I asked what they did about bullying the answer was "we let them sort it out themselves. We only talk to them if it gets really serious". There was no library as there were insufficient funds. The atmosphere was toxic and threatening. I also know a member of staff there.

I didn't say I don't care about other parents' children but I can only do something about my daughter. I would have home- schooled rather than send her there.

My son's secondary is nothing like that.

Schools don't let strangers have unlimited access to a school for the children's safety. They also want to know who is in the building for fire processes.