Fuming that they are talking of taking away pensioner bus passes and the triple lock

[jdoe8]

I'm still 40 years before I will get these, but I think we need to fight to keep these for future generations.

For many people they will have left school at 16 and worked until they were 65. Now after all those years of paying their taxes they aren't getting much back so the very least we need to do is allow them to travel and guarantee that their income will rise every year.

I'm still 40 years before I will get these, but I think we need to fight to keep these for future generations.

Ha! I don't think there will be so much as a state pension when I reach retirement age which is in 25 years, not 40 years. Or it will be so small as to be insignificant. Free bus passes will be a distant memory.

My mum gets the free bus pass and winter fuel payments. She flies to Australia business class every year. It's ridiculous that it isn't means tested.

there were 8 pensioners on the bus and they all had shopping carts. None of them would move. I offered to let them have my seat to move to but they wouldn't.

Maybe they were disabled AND old. Hence shopping carts.

Sorry, but whenever I see people getting snotty with doctors, bus drivers or people in shops, it's usually pensioners.

We must live in a different part of the world, in these parts the rude people are entitled mothers with tanks for pushchairs. They won't move for wheelchairs, just outright refuse. They occupy small coffee shops denying entrance to others.

Means testing is expensive and you'll always get people on the margins missing out when they shouldn't.

The changes to child benefit for example saved little.

I would rather live in a country where we treated everyone with respect, expected everyone to contribute in some way and thought the best of people. We do not.

We must live in a different part of the world, in these parts the rude people are entitled mothers with tanks for pushchairs. They won't move for wheelchairs, just outright refuse. They occupy small coffee shops denying entrance to others.

Round here rudeness isn't age or group specific. Vileness towards mums is also , some are rude some aren't. But like pensioners, teenagers, people going to work etc etc. In fact TBF most people of all ages aren't rude.

Well if a group on the whole keeps voting for other vulnerable groups to be worse off then they should also share the pain. Maybe they will then start voting in everyone's interests not just their own.

We are a rich country, there is no need for austerity at all.

I think you should only get a free bus pass as an oap if you don't own a car, if you own a car why do you need a free bus pass? And that is a genuine question I'm not sure if there is a case for someone having both?

We don't cover our own pensions anyway. It's not as if the government have put these taxes away ready to pay us out when we get old. Future generations will pay our pensions from the tax they pay, so if the working population diminishes then we are fucked as there won't be enough to go round - hence raising pension age to 66, then 67, now 70

Ivykaty, ever heard of pollution?

But thanks for understanding how pensions work. Some PPs seem to think that today's pensioners should have been paying in for the past forty years at today's values.

It's like they don't get maths, or logic or something.

We yes that's why I walk, cycle or and car share. But people that own cars get free bus pass over s certain age? Then never use the frigging bus that I can't afford to use

But if they aren't using it because they're driving, it's a notional cost only. I don't think the equivalent cash goes into their accounts

'Freedom' is an idea really, and when we're old and more physically compromised it's an idea, and a possibility, we'll all welcome.

On a different subject, an important point was made earlier by PP that pensioners are the only vulnerable group who actually fund their own care. Fuel, bus passes etc are bonuses not welfare.

Oldsu

I never said it was all pensioners, just that when I do see someone being an arse, it is usually an older person. I've never seen a younger person get all entitled about not being able to use their bus pass at half 8 (when the scheme starts at half 9) for example and playing the "I worked for 40 years for this!" card. I've never seen a young person refuse to move for a disabled person either.

I've never seen a younger person get all entitled about not being able to use their bus pass at half 8 (when the scheme starts at half 9) for example and playing the "I worked for 40 years for this!" card.

I've never seen an older person do this.

I've never seen a young person refuse to move for a disabled person either.

I have many times. They have their big pushchairs which matter so much more than a disabled person's comfort. And their precious DCs are deserving of a seat all to themselves.

I know how much is taken from this bonus pot instead of the welfare pit, never heard the figures for the bonus pot?

Means testing is expensive and you'll always get people on the margins missing out

I take your point about those who "falls between the cracks", but can't agree that means testing for WFA, bus passes, etc, needs to be expensive

Come to that, it isn't even necessary to bring in yet another system ... what's wrong with restricting these benefits to anyone receiving pension credit, a system which already exists and which could presumably serve as a gateway?

I think the word 'pensioner' used to conjure up images of struggling elderly folks who could barely get by, but as many PPs have pointed out, it's not really the same these days. 'Pensioners' as a group are the wealthiest demographic, and yes comparatively few of them actually NEED fuel allowances, bus passes etc, but what's the solution to this? Means testing just makes for a different argument - why should a feckless individual get it, and a responsible person who's saved and planned, not get it? God knows what the answer is, but as someone who will soon be joining the 'pensioner' age group, I do feel sorry for the younger generations who are paying for all this.

But if they aren't using it because they're driving, it's a notional cost only.

I've seen a few people say this but I'm a bit confused - surely bus companies get paid a flat fee for each bus pass, so someone not using it (but who has a bus pass) costs the state exactly the same as someone using it every day? Maybe I'm wrong - apologies if so - but on my local buses bus pass holders just get on and flash them, no one seems to be monitoring how many of them there are/where they go/etc. so I don't think the bus company can possibly be reimbursed per journey.

It's the ones born in 1954 like my sister I feel sorry for. She may be a baby boomer but has been screwed over again. Those born in 1952 get their pension at 62. The introduction was supposed to be staggered but now I believe she has to wait till 65 or 66 and no free bus pass till then either.

Correction 65 years 4 month. I know younger people will retire later but at least we had more notice.

Because there may be people not on pension credit who should be

Means testing is always going to cost - it's extra administration whichever way you look at it.

the point is not that pensioners should have been saving more - many of them wouldn't have had more money to save anyway.

The point is that the world has changed and a system that looked as though it would work in the 50's 60's and 70's is no longer working.

Bus passes are the least of the problem.

a system that looked as though it would work in the 50's 60's and 70's is no longer working. Quite! Given that a system brought in just 10 years ago is no longer working this shouldn't be a surprise! That many successive governments have done little bar tinker with edges is unforgivable, and everyone eligible to vote bears part of the blame for that!

Something has got to give - well, everything in the welfare system has to give. But until we, as a societal whole, stop looking for someone to blame any 'give' will be unsustainable and inequitable - to the old, the young, the less able, in/out of work, savers and spendthrifts...

@NoSunNoMoon Generalisations are rarely impressive in argument.

Please tell me that that is meant as a joke. Your argument about generalisations is in itself a generalisation! I may be fairly new to Mumsnet, but I believe it's the general rule here that you leave it to others to unpick your own argument - you don't need to do it yourself!

But anyway, I know I shouldn't "feed the troll" but I will answer your point. I did indeed state that the baby-boomer generation were "the ultimate selfish generation." I stand by this. Yes, it is a generalisation. But, by talking about a "generation" of people, it is fairly difficult to avoid making a generalisation. By definition, "generation" refers to a huge number of people with highly differing personal circumstances. I cannot conclude that the previous generation who laid down their lives in such numbers during various wars were more "selfish" than the baby-boomers. Nor can I conclude that the following generations are more selfish than the baby-boomers, for they are the generations who are paying to support them, even though they know they will not be able to lead as good a quality of life as their predecessors.

I also said "The young are definitely not to blame for the mess we are in" but also that "older people are not necessarily to blame individually" and that it was the policy of successive governments to favour the elderly above the young. I stand by this too. The current financial mess was caused by successive governments but Thatcher and Blair have the biggest case to answer. It is not fair to blame the young for the policy of governments that they were not old enough to vote for, perhaps were not even alive during their regime! Yes, not every baby-boomer voted for these governments and they are not individually to blame for the mess (as I stated). But one cannot argue that it is fair to punish the younger generations for the mistakes that older generations made.

You cannot inherit a debt. (It can be taken from an estate before any assets are passed on, but if the debt exceeds the assets an individual has, the debt cannot be passed on.) Why should the young inherit the debt of their parents and grandparents? And then pay for their "free" bus passes and other benefits into the bargain?

I agree that not all baby-boomers are rich, that they have to pay for their own care and so on. But they have had a better chance to accumulate the wealth they need to pay for their own care in later life than their children and grandchildren have. Cheap housing, buy-to-let, final salary pensions. All of these are the privilege of those who were born in the post-war years, and have not been extended to the person in their 20s and 30s today.

It's not the fault of baby-boomers that they were able to enjoy these privileges. But it is a shame that, even with these great advantages, the young have to be squeezed ever further so that wealthier, older people can live more comfortably than they themselves will ever do.

A 70-year-old in good health, with a final salary pension, a house that they paid off in their 40s because they were able to get a mortgage at 23, and the comfort of various investments they made with their income after they'd paid off the mortgage, gets a free bus pass so he can get home from the cricket or another shopping spree.

A 35-year-old who works 8am-5pm, plus travels an hour at each end, cannot get a mortgage even though they save hard, work hard and "do all the right things". They have to pay for the bus to work, and that of the wealthy 70-year-old above.

A real shame.

Yup. Irony.

But both my DSs and their partners are better off than we were at their ages. Both had no problem getting mortgages. My job was a vocation and not that well paid.

We were faced with galloping inflation when we were buying a home and really struggled. I don't know any boomers among our friends who paid off their mortgages in their 40s. We all aimed to have it paid off before we retired.

You are talking about people I don't recognise, yet I'm supposed to be one.

Catlady

It's the ones born in 1954 like my sister I feel sorry for. She may be a baby boomer but has been screwed over again. Those born in 1952 get their pension at 62. The introduction was supposed to be staggered but now I believe she has to wait till 65 or 66 and no free bus pass till then either

I was born in 1955 and am part of the screwed over generation too. Commiserations to your sister.