AIBU to want to carry on this interesting discussion about the Child Protection System?

[Spero]

Following on from this www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/2792849-AIBU-to-be-horrified-by-the-Stolen-Children-of-England?

I thought it was interesting. Some people didn't agree with me and said they would tell me why. I would like to hear their views.

Hello Seenthetruth, nice to meet you here.
I suspect we have already met on other forums.

It's really quite simple. If you post a link from a site that says 'Dogs are great! I really love Dogs! Best animals in the world! All other animals are shite!' and you are advising someone that they really shouldn't get a kitten - I am entitled to call you out on that.

I am entitled to question the credibility of your source, your motivations for posting and how much we can really trust your advice about not getting a kitten.

Sabine McNeill and John Hemming are the apex of the malevolent conspiracy industries that have done so much harm to so many people. I am getting a run of cases where the parents are refusing to co-operate with their lawyers or actively seeking advice from Ian Josephs. Want to have a guess how that ends for them?

therefore ANY website ANY Youtube channel ANY blog or ANY documentary that gives them or their close associates air time is tainted.

That's my view anyhow. I am sure everyone here is adult enough to click on whatever links they damn well want and to listen to or ignore as much of my advice as they feel like it.

So I won't be stopping anytime soon. Sorry about that. But if your links are credible and true, they will survive a bit of bashing from me, won't they?

NeedsAsock, some examples: previous thread 30/11/2016, on the turn posting about her fears. spero 19:38, "if you take the advice of Hemmings and Josephs you are much more likely to end up in a very desperate situation" haystack 10 4/12/16, posting of her concerns about the system. spero 17:31 "but the cp system is a million miles away from the disgusting scare stories of Hemmings and co". allpartoftheplan" 5/12/16, 11:48. ".......they can't do anything without evidence! Yes they can. They really. really can and it's terrifying". spero 12:38, "or had they got rid of their lawyers on the advice of Hemmings and co?" Poldarks 6/12/16. 09:25, "she's a brilliant advocate for parents". spero 09:37, "what remains dangerous however is that men like Hemming and Josephs are still preying on the vulnerable and encouraging them to do crazy things". spero 8/12/16, 07:07. Replying to discussions about dirty bathrooms and someone saying lawyers are useless. spero "it's part of the narrative pushed by hemming et al". Heythere 9/12/16, 00:16, "Spero. If that last comment in your very helpful post was aimed at me". spero 00:24, "Actually it wasn't. It was a more general comment at Hemming et al". Hope this answers your comment Needs, that spero only does it when the poster is pretty much copying and posting crap JH comes out with.

Needs so not such a hugely unfair snide little observation after all, eh? More examples: offrambling 14/12/16, 08:11, "spero today 07:10, "and the focus is on removal rather than support". spero 08:47. "yes its that simple and that terrifying. But what is now added to the poisoness mix is direct agitating and scaremongering from propagandists such as Hemming and Josephs". Also, " if your sources have any connection with Sabine McNeill, I shall dismiss them". deepankris 14/12/16, 22:48, "which thread got deleted?" spero 23:14, "you see, the problem with all the conspiracy theories is that it is the same people over and over and over again who are involved". Hemming, Sabine McNeill, Belinda Mckenzie, Carol Woods, etc, etc, etc. 23:17, "i then found out who she was- a Hemming acolyte" blah, blah, blah, boring, boring, boring. Give it a rest, spero

Manumission hit the nail on the head: 14/12/16 @ 16:45, "yes, I do think maybe the battle- weary are hearing a whole spectrum of criticism and concern as ALL being more JH conspiracy stuff".

And Quaidorsay 14/12/16 @ 16:14, "Although I can see where Spero is coming from when she says that what Hemming says may cause panic, at the same time, by constantly bringing personal issues with Hemming and issues with the media and emails and threats, debate is closed down".

For someone who finds talking about Hemming really boring, you sure do a lot of talking about Hemming.

I shall continue talking about what I want, when I want.

If people aren't interested, they don't have to engage.

And yet here you are.

Tell you what spero, let's see if you can go ten days without mentioning any of the conspiracists? Why not discuss the fact that you have at last admitted as a barrister in Family Court that "the focus is on removal rather than support". Please explain why parents should go to court and not leave the UK, now that we know the focus is on removal? Please explain how parents can possibly seek medical help for their children now that we know the focus is on removal? Please explain exactly how you and other professionals focus on removal in the Family Court?

Seenthetruth you're not the thread police. You don't get to tell people what to do.

Calm down crashdoll spero's on here to answer/ allay our concerns, isn't she?

Happy to answer your questions, but I am afraid you are going to have to accept that I think the conspiracists are a big part of the problem. Therefore I am going to have to talk about them. So do feel free to stop reading now.

Tell you what spero, let's see if you can go ten days without mentioning any of the conspiracists? No. Why? Its my area of interest and expertise. I will talk about it if I want to.

Why not discuss the fact that you have at last admitted as a barrister in Family Court that "the focus is on removal rather than support". Please explain why parents should go to court and not leave the UK, now that we know the focus is on removal? Because 'focus' is not the same as 'inevitability'. Because the Government are encouraging a focus on the 'chld rescue narrative and the primacy of adoption above all other options, does NOT mean that your lawyer, the guardian and the Judge go along with it. If you leave the UK however you are making it very hard to come back and you are putting yourself at risk if you go to - for example the caravan that Hemming funded to put in the garden of a man who hospitalised his partner.

Please explain how parents can possibly seek medical help for their children now that we know the focus is on removal? Because if you are a sane, reasonable, loving parent, you will get medical help for your child if your child needs it. And if you fail to get medical help for your child when he needs it, you are a danger to your child and your child should be removed from your care sooner rather than later. The fact that the impact of the conspiracy theorists has been to terrify parents against taking their children to hospital is one of the most truly shocking and disgusting consequences of their deliberate actions to spread fear and distrust.

Please explain exactly how you and other professionals focus on removal in the Family Court? we don't. The 'focus' is something that is coming from Government policy. I note the speech given by Gove when he was Education Minister for e.g. about rescuing children from neglectful parents as if the parents were some kind of 'natural disaster'. I don't focus on removing children. I have just spent two days getting up a 5am to travel 3 hours to argue in a contested adoption. I have asked the Judge to publish his judgment and I have asked his permission to relax section 12 of the Adminstration of Justice Act so I can write an article about what happened, in a vain attempt to try and educate other lawyers and social workers about what NOT to do in such cases.

I'll send you a link if you like. I promise not to mention Hemming.

There are LOTS of problems with the way successive Governments want to derail proper focus on what children need.

This is funny, but not really - because it's true.suesspiciousminds.com/2016/12/21/fire-eating-pilot/

In my darker moments, when I feel the reassuring rustle of my tin foil hat, I sometimes ponder if Hemming and his crew are actually paid by the Government to distract us all from what is really going on until it is far, far, far too late to do anything about it.

Seenthetruth, really - you want a discussion on child protection conspiracy issues without any mention of chief cheerleaders hemming, Joseph etc. Or is it just spero who you are giving the weird challenge to about no mentioning them for 10 days.

You lose spero, you appear to have an obsession about conspiracists. What are your views on libel, because you have misquoted someone called offrambling a number of times. He/ she wrote " I could pull your opinions, which you state as facts, apart". 14/12/16, 07:49. You keep adding "line by line". Is this libel or doesn't misquoting count on an anonymous forum?

I don't lose. Because I am not playing your game.

Just checking my blog stats. This is AGAIN the most popular post BY MILES since the site started in February 2014.
childprotectionresource.online/reporting-post-natal-depression/

I asked Ian Josephs if he would fund parent advocates, to help support parents going through this, improve their chances of keeping their children. He wouldn't. But he can find the cash to give it to Marie Black, a convicted paedophile.

Just what has Hemming done to try and improve circumstances for these parents?

Just what do YOU do, apart from being o so very loyal?

Comehome yep. The challenge is open to anyone, but not a discussion on conspiracy issues. A discussion on child protection. Unfortunately, spero has already lost.

I had a very sad conversation on the bus the other day.
There was a bloke who struck up conversation with my kids because he said he had one the same age as my DS but couldn't see him often as he lived so far away, and he had no car - it was a 3 bus journey there, stay overnight, then a 3 bus journey back.
Turned out his DS was with foster carers the other side of the county and was being processed for adoption. He couldn't have his son because he drank, and he was taken from his mother because she has post natal psychosis, she then had a further breakdown when she realised her son had gone, and hadn't recovered enough to have him back!
According to the bloke, if she'd been able to find a place in a mother and baby unit, they would have both been home, and he wouldn't have fallen off the wagon.
I think it's dreadful that there aren't enough mother and baby units. I suspect there is more to the story than just poor mental health preventing the baby's return, but it can't have helped to have to travel so far to see the baby! Apparently she couldn't cope with it due to her health, and so the SWs are getting the child adopted.
Is this route to adoption common?

He was very convinced of the "baby snatching" story btw. And he just kept on talking at me, like he couldn't stop telling me WAY more than I wanted to know, or than I wanted my kids to hear :(

Seen, the thing is, you don't get to wander in, make bizarre challenges and decide that anyone is winning or losing. You are being absurd. And pointless.
We can discuss who we want. Hemming. Joseph. Tuttle. Etc.

Get over yourself.

O so very loyal to who? You didn't answer the question on libel? Is this what happens in the Closed Family Court, a few words added here, a few words removed there? And hey presto, parents seen through different eyes! Sorry you lost the challenge spero, you really should get some help with your obsession though. It distracts from the main issues, such as parents living in fear and even more so now after your admission of where the focus really is.

Namejust, thankyou so much for talking about the real issues. It does seem completely wrong and inhumane doesn't it, when you hear people's stories.

You lose also Comehome, sorry. What about the sad conversation that Name has just relayed?

Yes. Thank you for talking about the real issues.

There are not nearly enough Mother and Baby units, foster carers or other support for parents.

I am quite sure that a number of children have been adopted who could have stayed with their parents if they had the right support at the right time. But they didn't. Some looked for support and didn't get it. And some left the country on the advice of Hemming and Josephs and lost their children for ever.

It's really really sad. And I would like to know what Hemming, when a serving MP, actually DID about the cuts to services and the lack of mother and baby placements.

I can't answer your point about libel Seenthetruth because to be honest I haven't the first clue what you are now going on about.

But I have just had an email - Judge will give me permission to write an article, so that hopefully will be both interesting and useful for other parents in that position.

Has anyone in government ever done a cost analysis of intervention/mother baby units/rehab help versus care and adoption? I know it's morally repugnant to break it down to cost, but that's the bottom line.

What about the sad conversation that Name has just relayed?

What about it?

Seen - if you have a point on child protection, feel free to share. Or are you just here because of an agenda with spero?

That's good re the article.