to move back to London?

[Almondmilk]

I know that AIBU advisors are very opinionated, I take a risk here!
Here is the case: my partner and I,, both Europeans met in London. We lived there. We moved to Scandinavia as he has a property there and I wanted to give it a try so he wouldn't sell it without having lived there together. It's been two years that we are there and I can't get used to the lifestyle there. It's good for plenty of reasons but I also miss a lot of things: friends, arts, automn, etc! I have learned the basics of language but I can't picture myself speaking a third language, I am just tired of it. I miss my mothertongue as well as I am fine speaking in english. My partner isn't fond of the culture of his homeland and he doesn't have friends here (he doesn"t bond with Scandinavians!). The most important things we have here are: a good small flat, clean environment, small costs. But I feel like we will always miss having friends and unexpected situations like we had in London. Work opportunities here are none so we have created self-employed situations - well at least it works for me, not for him yet-. We are bored at night (especially me) and weekends and it affects our relationship.

I feel VERY guilty question my geographical situation. So...Aibu to want to move away, or back to London/UK? Please be frank but kind as I already struggle enough, it's 6am and I haven't slept a wink.

We're moving from our (safe, beautiful but DULL non-London city) to London next year and I CAN'T WAIT.

We're so bored here, and there will be so much more to do with the children there too. It's all going to be brilliant.

And what you say about employment is pertinent too - I have created my own job here, but I am SO MUCH MORE employable in London. Lots of people who live here have moved OUT of London to be here, and think we're demented moving in the opposite direction but for us, the bigger the city, the better, especially for children.

oh well Almond, if you need a London round up, here's mine

there was a kid on the Tube yesterday singing "London Bridge is falling down" and it was all I could do not to say "No dear, you mean Hammersmith Bridge".

La Soiree is back on for Xmas - here are the English Gents, my fave!

Matthew Bourne has a production of The Red Shoes on at Sadlers' Wells, like an homage to the film, amazing but quite honestly not long enough

everywhere has done new cocktails for Xmas, it seems, though I can't get my head round the creamy eggnog type...milk in cocktails, ugh.

had mince pie ice cream at a lunch this weekend, don't know how they make it but it's nice

the trains are beyond nightmarish!! but as I'm looking after mum at the moment, I don't' have to go into Central London except for one day next week and then after that till New Year. But they are doing live broadcasts of various theatre shows at my local cinema so that's good too.

They might consider somewhere like Cambridge or any other university town that's commutable if they can't afford London.

Paying for Cambridge property prices and then a season ticket into King's Cross is probably one of the few ways to live less affordably than in London... It would get a bit cheaper if you lived in a village near Cambridge, but then you have to piss about getting to the station which makes a unpleasant but bearable commute really quite intolerable.

Sounds like you really hate it. I'd move.

@Lorelei76 I like the stories! And I am listening to the song. I can relate to it much more than 'Imse vimse spindel'. I watch channel 4 low resolution on youtube...

@icanteven where about do you live? You guys are both self-employed? Oh and where do you plan to move in London? Zone 2? 3?

Problem with DP is that he is a bit depressed, he doesn't know where he wants to live...Seriously it might be my chance to decide for us but I don't trust myself enough. What if he sells his flat and I make the wrong choice...

@Kennington I'm sure there are ways around childcare costs such as having the baby in nursery only 2 days a week, 2 days with me, 2 days with dad. Scandinavia has a great system for free nurseries but this is such a short time in life. Adults have no fun here, it's all about babies. It's only great if you don't have much interest for the cultural life.

Almond, could he rent his flat out or would a sale be essential?

@Lorelei76 Renting isn't an option for him...'we are too old' (we are not). He would rather sell and leave. It would be hard to rent in/near London as we are both self-employed with irregular incomes.

Check out areas along the London Bridge to Sevenoaks line. Nice and leafy, good commute and cheaper than many areas. Oh and yeah, come back, London's fab :)

Almond, I'm really sympathetic to not wanting to rent and T&Cs in the UK are bloody awful. I just wondered if maybe it was an option but I can see why it isn't.

But all the things OP is missing - art, multiculturalism, other europeans, being able to speak her mother tongue, things to do at weekends and in the evenings - you're not going to get those in the sticks

Have you ever actually left London for a day? A few hours maybe?

I'm sure there are ways around childcare costs such as having the baby in nursery only 2 days a week, 2 days with me, 2 days with dad.

My partner is open to find a place near London if we can find a gem: countryside-ish house super well connected to London for us car-free people.

How long did you actually live in London OP? Was it brief? You sound a bit unrealistic in your expectations. If you're looking at the price of 1/2 bedroom flats in zone 3) I think you are going to struggle to find an affordable house (and certainly not a 'gem') which is suitable for non-drivers.

You sound like you are not very clued up on the transport situation either. Without any family support you are going to struggle with the delays as you will probably need a back up for collection several times a week possibly for a few hours each time.

I don't think you would find it easy to find two jobs where you and DH both could regularly take the same two week days off either. As I said earlier, most of my friends who have stayed in London are child free. And you should take into consideration the fact that if you come back to London you may well find that you cannot get yourself into a situation where having a family is affordable.

You don't sound like you are high earners. Realistically in that situation most people have to decide whether they are going to leave London and even the South East to have a family or stay in London and not pursue having a family.

Mumsnets readership does tend very much towards high earners. And when this question comes up you always get people saying how marvellous having children in London is. But often it really is not an accurate reflection of what life is like in London for people who are more ordinary. And while on paper people talking about commuting to Brighton or Ramsgate sounds okay, when you factor in train delays, childcare, work/life balance etc it's not great.

Also, saying Scandinavia is great for babies but not adults. It's probably good for adults with children though. I think you might have a bit of a naive view of parenthood too. Life does change. You're viewing life in London through the prism of your child free life. Life changes when you have kids. They have bedtimes and are fussy eaters and get bored easily. It's a nice idea that you will be eating out and taking in culture all the time when you have kids. In reality there will probably be an awful lot of boring evenings in, washing, ironing, cooking, making packed lunches, nagging, cleaning and tidying up. They are much the same in London and Scandinavia. The difference is, if you live in the South East often they take up your only free hour a day and most of the weekend. Somewhere with a better work/life balance would be much more likely to actually give you the opportunities to do the things you want.

@BillSykesDog thanks for insight. I do have a very naive perception of what could be a family life that goes to the museum on Sundays...
I will never know until I experience it. I don't iron clothe though ;)
I can see that my friends who have friends hardly show up to any event here, but also because they don't care. I guess I am seeking for a crewd that wish they could go to the museums (even if they don't manage to get there!).
'Mumsnets readership does tend very much towards high earners' yes that's my feeling too. We are low earners but low spenders too. No fancy car, hanbag or so. Just the bare minimum, cheapest restaurant, cheapest beer and a ticket to the museum.
We can take days off as we are self-employed so basically we can work whenever we want. But that is to verify when having kids yes.
My partner didn't like Brighton and it's probably too expensive but I'd be happy not to go to London too often. I lived in London +7yrs but I did live in a child free bubble, super selfish life which was amazing I have to say.
You depict a quite horrible family life but thanks for that if that's realistic. Should stay on my contraceptive maybe :)

*I can see that my friends who have babies

I always recommend staying on contraceptives

Seriously most of my friends here have kids, working, couple of single mums but key thing is they bought property 12-15 years ago. Current prices give me dizzy spells. They commute, take the kids to museums and galleries etc.

I've loved most places I've been outside London and totally agree that you can have lovely arts and culture in many places.

I'm also a low spender btw.

I was born and raised mostly in London and now live in Scandinavia with where I've young children. Honestly if you're thinking of having children soon I'd stay in Scandinavia, it's so, so much cheaper and easier here. In London nurseries can be so hit or miss and not everyone working there is qualified and they're so expensive. Here we pay about £250/md for an amazing public nursery with qualified staff and lower child to adult ratios. My children will grow up going to the London museums and parks but I'm glad they can live in this clean city near the mountains and beaches most of the time.

Maybe you've just not found the right creative circles yet? The city I live in (not a capital) ) has lots of alternative people doing creative things - hard to know exactly what area you're interested in. I guess the main difference would be that I like it here and importantly can speak the language well, if you can't learn it then I can see why you'd want to move but I think you really need to consider the expense of London before selling up and leaving where you are now forever.

It wasn't meant to be horrible. Just realistic. All the inane pointless boring jobs that you have to do for yourself you start having to do x 3 because there is an incredibly messy small person that you have to do it all for too.

Yes, you can go out to museums and galleries and things. But you also have to do homework and sort out uniforms, make packed lunches and sort out baths. It can be an awful lot of fun and very rewarding. But it is routine and does eat into your ability to do other things and that routine is going to be the same wherever you are.

I'm not trying to be unpleasant, just realistic. It would be sad if you moved back thinking you would accept the downsides of living in the South East because of the bonuses of things to do, but then found out all the downsides left you with very little time to actually enjoy the things you thought would make them worthwhile.

Although a lot of people get very into the culture things when their kids are grown. My parents did. But you might be waiting 15 years or so for that..

@Lorelei76 I know...why on earth getting into trouble forever. I doubt!

@Ameilius Thanks for sharing experience. how do you deal with language? The difference between me and brits in Scandinavia is that I never get to speak my mothertongue. So I have to speak English at home (which is fine) and Swedish outside (which is too much). How often do you go to mountains and beaches with your kids? My partner doesn't give a damn about nature, I'm always at home or down the street.
I have tried several creative circles and they happen to be as closed as the non creative circles. People have their friends, they usually don't ask my name, where I'm from or anything personal actually. A conversation last around 2-3min, unless it is with an expat. Do you hang out with Scandinavians?

I appreciate your warning in selling and being able to come back. That might be true. I am discussing here to try to understand what is the grown up life with family priorities.

@BillSykesDog I don't think your post was unpleasant, it's instructive for me. I need people like you to tell me how much time is left for real enjoyment. And when kids are grown, what do you do then? I'm thinking that maybe people get so tired that they want to do nothing, certainly not go to the museum...

The culture things is my life, I can not wait to be old, I have lived this way since always. I should not have left the art scene capital, this might be my mistake.

I'm from London and still live here and still see the appeal but I agree with some PPs about the negatives. It feels overcrowded and grubby, and it's expensive and it's a nightmare to get around driving tube train whatever. If you can afford to buy with no or a tiny mortgage you might be alright. Have you thought about Bristol? That's a creative multicultural friendly city.

(Haven't rtft.)

Childcare is practically free in some Scandinavian countries. In London, I'm looking at £1500/month.

I'm Scandinavian, and I get green with envy when I hear about the family friendly lifestyle my friends enjoy, in a country where practically everyone owns a large house. My DH is a so called "high earner", but we live in a rented flat and I can't afford to go back to work unless I find something that pays more than my last job.

But I also absolutely love London and I understand what you mean about Scandinavians. I get on well with the ones I meet here, but back home I sometimes find them rude and cold.

With us it's my partner who loves nature and hiking not me, I'd rather be in the city and stay out of the mountains.. so he takes the our children out lots - maybe every other weekend. I see what you mean about having adding a third language into the mix so you never really get any time to speak your language, that must be very tiring and a bit upsetting. Are there not people who speak it where you are? I don't really know how I learnt Norwegian really, I was awful at languages at school, I even speak it to my DH now so am pretty fluent. I worked in a nursery for a few years which helped as you have to speak lots then.

It's sad that you haven't found the right groups, I do mostly hang out with scandianvians but I think maybe I'm also a bit like them in that I don't mind being quite and am not always that social! I have had to be the person to initiate friendships and invite people out for coffee and start conversations but I find that they mostly do want to be friends they're just crap at starting things off (might be a generalisation)

I think ideally I would love to live in a big flat overlooking a park in zone 1 in London and work the same number of hours for lots of money but I'll settle for a smaller town that I do love and a higher income so I can afford lots of weekend breaks in Europe and not worry about money. If you can live very cheaply and will manage nursery fees move back but otherwise wait until your hypothetical child is 5 and can go to school!

Interesting thread and dilemma.

Just wanted to share my perspective as someone who has moved back to London with kids (though from countryside uk, & far away from London, not the south east) . . . Basically I would agree with the cautious posters. I disagree with those who say london is falling apart etc but I would heed their advice about trying to imagine living here with kids if you are planning on them. For me I feel like I live in this amazing city but am not really experiencing all it has to offer due to the kids. Babies and toddlers (& pre schoolers) get cranky and bored and so you cannot enjoy the cultural things in the way you did childfree and for that reason we really don't do that many of them. I live very central (zone 1/2 border) thanks so shared ownership but even though all the sights / cultural happenings are a short bus ride (or even a walk for some) trips out with the kids are often limited to the local park. I often wonder why we are paying through the nose to live here when we are not enjoying what we missed when living far away. I also feel bad for the kids not having a garden or countryside to roam in. I suppose the main benefit is the fact I have a very short cycle commute but with moves to flexible working across my organisation I think I would not lose much in work life balance if we moved out again. However sue to the huge costs of the SE of England generally in terms of house prices we'll probably end up much further afield if we do move back out. The other advantage is the fact out local primary schools are all great and DS is now in reception in a school I'm incredibly impressed with and he is very happy so I feel very torn about taking him away from such a great school.

However you did point out that childcare needing years are relatively short which is true for pre school care, so maybe if you can bear living in a great city but not being able to appreciate it for a few years, you will at least still be there when the kids are older and better able to enjoy london too! For me though, I'm not sure it's worth it for the bloody huge cost of living (mainly driven but the uber expensive housing)

@juneau are you sure about that point: 'so anyone who was ordinarily resident before June 23, 2016 may get to stay’ I’d move back asap to make to be settled before brexit happens…We lived 8 years in the UK.

Nope - I'm not sure about anything. No-one is. And no-one will be until we've negotiated our exit from the EU. The point is that we just don't know what will happen. We don't know what rights EU citizens may or may not have once we've exited the EU. And EU citizens living here in the UK may well have to meet certain criteria to be welcome to stay here at that point. They may need to have 'exercised their treaty rights'. They may need to have been ordinarily resident in the UK for a certain number of years by a certain date. We won't know the answers to these questions until a deal has been negotiated between the UK and the EU. And if you're planning on moving here, as two EU citizens, then you should be aware of that - at the very least.

Personally, if I was an EU citizen without a British passport, I wouldn't be moving to the UK right now. I'd be waiting to see what happens. Because it would really suck for you to give up your life in Scandinavia and move here only to discover that you have leave again in 2019.

And London + low income + kids really isn't a great combination. Any two of those things on their own is probably doable, but all three would be pretty crap. I'd stay where you are.