To think burlesque IS empowering?

[Neverknowing]

Following on from the 'burlesque' thread, I want to ask peoples opinion on burlesque I think if a woman is getting paid to do something they enjoy and they feel empowered by it then there's nothing wrong? I have a friend who did burlesque for years and said men and women who went to the shows were always respectful and she loved doing it!
Does anyone have any reasons they think burlesque isn't empowering?

I don't think there's anything wrong with it, mywinetime.

It isn't really the same thing as Burlesque though.

Is there something wrong with a woman feeling confident with her sexual attractiveness

Not in the slightest. But there is a lot wrong with pretending that stripping is a legitimate and feminist route to feeling that confidence.

Again, anyone can do what they like. Personal choice, whatever. But trying to claim that its empowerment is something althogether different.
And trying to appropriate and demean the women forced into to doing the same by economic necessity is abhorrent.

if a women feels her only empowerment is through her burlesque act then of course something isn't right

but if it adds to her confidence and she enjoys it and has a good time (it is a fun performance not purely sexual) I can not see the problem either

dance and performance can be very sexual there is nothing wrong with that

Can people really not see the issue even after it is explained to them many times in many ways?

What you do for yourself: nobody gives a fuck.
What you claim and preach and steal: people give a big fuck.

Clearer?

So there are some women who enjoy it. It doesn't make it empowering.
There's sometimes wrong with the idea of feeling "empowered" by knowing a man has enjoy looking at you.

GazingAtStars

Massive? If there was a census, the only way amateur hobbyists are ever going to outnumber the professionals is if you count every single woman who has been dragged along to one session as part of a hen do!

(Incidentally, if it's just gymnastics and not to do with sex, why do so many of the generic Lindsay's school of polefitness specifically advertise themselves to hen-do parties, and why do women go on them? I've never heard of women having a group streetdance lesson for a hen. Why is that? )

If you ever do get some census data on people participating in pile-dancing, compare the numbers of participants to the numbers of adults in some other leisure pursuits, such as Parkrun, horse-riding, cycling, choir, karate...

Most Burlesque isn't really dancing though, is it?

The video posted earlier of the woman who was a national champion, she's not really dancing.

She's mostly just showing people her arse while imitating a peacock.

I can not answer for other women if they feel it is empowering and they feel empowered who am I to tell them it isn't

Burlesque is not the same as pole dancing

They are not selling themselves as just being sexual, its a performance not to just to turn men on it is to amuse the audience

But you can ask what is the power that they have gained, ED.

If burlesque is not about sex and is for amusement, how come it's never on Live from the Apollo or the Royal Variety Performance?

Because it's too risqué! And it's risqué because it has a sexual element to it.

Laughing whilst getting your kit off for approval, is still getting your kit off for approval.

There are about a hundred things that would make me feel empowered and taking my clothes off in front of strangers is right at the bottom of my list. Sorry I can't see how it could possibly make me feel empowered. And it's not because I don't acknowledge my sexual side, I am a beautiful person, have a nice figure (for my age anyway, I was much better looking in my 20s but hey, it's life) and I am very confident in how I look and in my intellectual capacities. To me, reading this thread, i have concluded that some people need a bigger 'mirror' than others, and feeling beautiful, sexy and empowered will come from how other people will see them, not as they see themselves. Some people need more 'feedback' hence, a bigger mirror. I am not calling people who enjoy taking their kit off as part of a burlesque show narcissistic, but it's more that they need to 'feel sexy' in the eyes of others. I simply don't have that need and it doesn't make me feel less sexy.

It is exhibitionism, rather than narcissism.

Thank you user148! Completely agree. I have no problem with burlesque as a thing that some people like to do. If you enjoy it and it makes you feel good, that's lovely for you. I have a huge problem with the sales pitch that it is somehow empowering and an even bigger problem with the view that it is feminist and subverting the status quo when all it does is support the idea that we are valued solely on our bodies.

The fact is nobody ever says to a woman 'wow, you completed your PhD. That is so empowering!'. It is something that only ever seems to be said in relation to our body and our looks. Taking your clothes off is empowering, wearing or not wearing makeup is apparently empowering, writing a novel is however not empowering, displaying your art work in a renowned gallery is again never described as empowering. The whole use of the term empowerment when applied to women is pretty much soley focused on our looks and burlesque is just a part of that.

Do it if you like, but at least be honest about what it is and cut the empowerment, feminist crap.

Yes it is risqué it is not for children and why is that an issue not everything entertaining is for children

I think any performer that is able to capture their audience can feel empowered if that is only about thrusting your fanny and gaining money from that is different

Burlesque is not about that it is not just stripping its mixing humour, satire and being sexual

If you think of it as a form of acting, then I wonder if "acting" is seen as empowering?

I know that drama and music are colloquially recommended as forms of therapy and socialising.

The two actors I know are both personally insecure, fairly neurotic and have MH issues - they love performing as they feel confident on the stage, but it doesn't seem to contribute to their overall self-worth (I'm aware of course that 2 actors do not represent everyone!)

Ballet dancers and panto villains also hold a stage - are they empowered?

Quite almondpudding. I once attended a friend's hen do where we were excruciatingly given a burlesque lesson. By the bride to be. I just wanted to scream "it's just bloody stripping" as she was saying how wonderful it was for a myriad reasons, one of which was it was 'empowering'. If those who want to do it get a kick out of it, then fine, but don't make out that those who don't are prudes, or unsexy, or whatever. The same bride performed a burlesque routine at her own wedding.

Burlesque is not the same as pole dancing

Why? Is it somehow above it?

Drama as an amateur is a form of socialising. It isn't the same thing as being a professional actor, which is hugely cut throat and judgemental as an industry, and tends to create mental health problems.

But no, people don't describe doing drama as empowering.

Agree Jeepers. 'Oh the Nobel prize for literature - you must feel so empowered'

I guess the clue is in the word - 'empowered' suggests you have had power bestowed on you by somebody else, not that you innately have power or have earned power by your actions.

Hmm am dram seems to attract quite a lot of people who crave attention and seek the validation of an audience though from what I've seen.

because pole dancing (as it is done at clubs) women are selling their performance that is highly sexualised to gain more money

I have seen burlesque shows where they had amusing poetry, stunts, men and women performers, trans people acts, its a much fuller performance not just a women in corsets dancing and stripping

Remember that programme that Gok Wan did?
Can't remember the name but something about feeling good naked.

The whole bloody thing was a massive con but it was hugely popular.

Get a woman who isn't happy with her looks. Tell her she is beautiful because she has great tits and then stick her in enough lycra to dress an entire squad of gymnasts. Then get her to walk up and down in front of a load of gawping strangers.

Send her away with strict instructions what she may and may not wear in order to continue to 'love her body'.

'Design' a range of clothing based on these rules i.e. everything contains scaffolding and ruching to lift and hide anything unpleasant.

Laugh all the way to the bank whilst attaining status of national hero.

The world is fucking mad.

because pole dancing (as it is done at clubs) women are selling their performance that is highly sexualised to gain more money

That also applies to the majority of burlesque.

if you had read my first post I did say that what burlesque is and what it has become for some performances is not the same

they have been many great dancers that have also done stripping, it is seen as an art form but that doesn't mean all stripping is an art form