To not understand what Laurie Love's Aspergers has to do with his extradition

[Olympiathequeen]

Not an autism bashing thread please.

But he is a political activist. He knew what he was doing and that it was wrong.

If 10 year olds who know the difference between right and wrong can be held criminally responsible why can't he?

He caused damage and expense to the US government so he should pay for it like anyone else.

He may be a suicide risk but so are many people in jail.

Surely his Aspergers is irrelevant?

He should face the music and face trial. Yes he may be a suicide risk, but that is not a reason to avoid extradition and trial. I'd be a suicide risk if I was imprisoned, but that doesn't give me carte blanche to break the law.

While we're on the subject of political activists avoiding justice, I would like Julian Assange to stop being so cowardly and face his accusers too. Either he is innocent and should therefore want to clear his name, or he's guilty and therefore he needs to be locked up.

It's funny how "political activists" like these two seem to think it's fine to bring others to account, regardless of whether those people have actually broken the law, but when it comes to crimes they are accused of, it's an entirely different story...

You do know the proportion of people in British jails with learning difficulties, autism or mental health difficulties is very very high? If he was my son I would be fighting tooth and nail to keep him in this country. But his personal situation isn't unusual.

I also wonder if those arguing against this man being extradited supported the disagraceful trial in an adult court of the two 10 year old boys who killed Jamie Bulger? That was a disgrace to have a full court trial for two 10 year old boys. And I doubt very much that they fully understood the consequence of their actions.

I think there is support for cases like this because most people do not see hacking as really a crime. There would have been a different reaction of it had been a violent crime.

If that is just a bland meaningless statement and someone can admit that autism is a diagnosis with commonalities, hence it's diagnosed from a list of traits/symptoms, then maybe we can have some useful discussion about it

I don't believe it to be useless, yes there is a list of traits but each of these can impact someone differently, they could have some of them traits or none of them, useless statements are comparing one autistic person to another, as an argument of well this one can do X fine why can't the others, like we all have the exact same traits and it all has the exact same effect on us, yes we will share some, but it will do it in different ways to different degrees

Gutted, I am so sorry your brother is in this situation. I heard your father being interviewed on Radio Scotland tonight. He is clearly very worried, as are all right thinking people. I listened with my 18 yo son who has AS/HFA. I worry so much about my boy's future when i hear of cases like this. Luckily he isn't very interested in computers. But the impulsiveness and being easily led are a constant problem.

Well said noblegiraffe.

I will sign the Obama petition Gutted. And I actually think this thread should be deleted because I can guarantee you that the autism bashing will get much worse.

I hope with all my heart that Mr Love is allowed to face the consequences of his actions in the UK, where he can utilise the support of his family and friends

Nobody (with a heart) who has watched his interviews can fail to be moved by his vulnerability no matter how "clever" he is on paper

I wish you, and him, all the best GAB

I think there is support for cases like this because most people do not see hacking as really a crime.

The problem is he hacked the Federal Reserve, NASA, the US Army, the FBI and the Environmental Protection Agency.

If watched the interview on itv news earlier.

2 things sprung to mind.

1- he clearly struggles as you could see where he's picked skin and was doing so during the interview. And that's in his own country with a support network.

2- that he's very clearly set on the rules of what could happen, what he can do (plea bargain) and what will happen if he remains in the uk. It was a fact based argument and I believe he honestly doesn't understand or engage in the realism and emotional side of it.

I have a Ds who has HFA and presents in the same way. Knows he's done something wrong but only by learning the rules - he doesn't actually understand why. And he's highly intelligent.

gutted my thoughts are with your family. Maybe if this thread continues as it is it would help your mum to see a more rational side of society. (Never thought I'd say that about MNers!!!)

"If "you've met one person with autism, then you've met one person with autism" then nobody should be assuming that Laurie Love's autism actually has any relevance to the crime committed."

I said this after the op had made a judgement against Laurie because she knows two autistic boys.
Of course ASD has relevance here, and it isn't a bland, meaningless statement, it serves to point out to someone that even though (insert random name here) can do xyz and understands abc, it doesn't mean that the next autistic person is capable of the same.

I find when I'm hyper-focused on something that I lose sight of anything else, such is the intensity. In my case though I forget about housework, visiting family, things like that which have no consequence as such. I can see how easily something like this could happen, and it be all about asperger's.

KathArtic - I know.

It was a fact based argument and I believe he honestly doesn't understand or engage in the realism and emotional side of it

He really won't engage in the emotional side of it, its impossible to talk to him about how he's really feeling as he just sticks to facts and what should and shouldn't happen according to the facts. There's a Finnish documentary team making a film about him and are despairing of the fact they just can't get any emotion out of him.

If he's so badly affected that he can't understand the ramifications of the case, how is it ethical to make a documentary about him exactly?

I really don't know what to think about this case, especially as the mum of a boy with Aspergers. My son has a brain like Swiss cheese, totally brilliant in certain areas, totally hopeless in others. When he was younger I had to do a lot of work with him about how to behave in certain circumstances. One thing he really struggled with was the idea of something being wrong in all circumstances. So for instance if I had to tell him off, I had to explain that his behaviour was wrong no matter what day of the week it was. Otherwise his thought process would be, Mum is telling me off about x and today is Tuesday, therefore I mustn't do x on a Tuesday. Or I ate cornflakes for breakfast so I mustn't do it if I have cornflakes for breakfast. This probably sounds mad to a lot of people, but it is how his mind works. So absolute concepts are not always absolute to people with Aspergers. Just saying.

People with Asperger's suffer from anxiety, particularly to do with the unfamiliar. Her committed a crime but extradition is just cruel. He should be dealt with here.

He, not her!

Gutted I get it. I really do. my Ds with HFA is exactly the same. I despair sometimes at the realism of trying to get people to understand that the emotion just isn't there.

My Ds cannot understand his actions hurt someone if his intention was not to hurt someone.

My thoughts are with your family at this difficult time and I commend you coming on here to discuss this openly - it can't have been an easy decision for you.

Sugarlightly it wasn't a case of "aw, poor man", it's a case of ensuring he does have the cognitive abilities to be considered criminally responsible. People can be very deceiving in their presentations. I don't have lots of professional experience of individuals who are on autistic spectrum but I have a good knowledge of working with adults with a brain injury. These individuals often present as very able but if they have frontal lobe brain damage, their executive functioning is damaged. This means their attention is affected, their ability to plan, their inhibition control and reasoning to make a few. Basically, the higher and complex parts of thinking, planning and learning. People who have autism often experience similar problems.

Don't know cactus but my parents agreed to it. I think they want the truth about it all to be known.

GAB my heart goes out the you all 💐Xx

I first heard about your brother's situation on LBC a little while ago. They were interviewing your Dad and it was heartbreaking.

Then last night I head what happened with Amber Rudd & I turned the air blue. However, the person interviewed did give me some hope, it seemed like AR didn't have much wriggle room due to the law, but that it might still get refused at the next stage. I HOPE that's the case.

No one should be able to be extradited without some bloody good evidence, no one, but especially vulnerable people.

Yes our prisons are going to hell in a handbasket (prison guards paid £17,000 a year, hardly bloody surprising is it 🙁) but they're still a ton better than US prisons and a bit better at looking after the seriously vulnerable. But mainly, as you say, here he has your parents to look out for him and it will get to court much quicker.

I know you feel you can't do much to help, but your love & support will surely mean a lot to your parents and them being supported helps your brother.

I will look at the Obama thing & your other comment re helping. Please let us know if you think of anything else we can do. Just know you have lots of support here - please just TRY to ignore people who are ignorant, they aren't worth your head space.

I'm sure this thread will be in the Daily Fail tomorrow as they seem to get most of their content from here, lazy twats, but use it to your advantage. Say what you would have said if you'd agreed to do the interviews.

Much love, be strong!
💐

Let's campaign for fairness for LL. Mumsnet? Let's get behind this!

A mumsnet campaign would be brilliant.

The Daily Fail, for all its failings, did actually write a really decent article on my brother.

I feel very conflicted about this.

Firstly I have a brother who was convicted of a crime and jailed. After 19 years of fighting the truth came out. I can't give details at the moment. While my brother wasn't in danger of being extradited I do know the stress this can bring on a family.

I also have Aspergers. Yes I can get obsessed but I also know right from wrong. My worry is that if people can use a diagnosis to say that they didn't understand the consequences, then they need closer monitoring. If LL didn't understand what he did was wrong, then how can he be allowed access to a computer, alone again?

I don't even know if this is something that can be considered. But if someone's diagnosis made them violent and they coukdnt help it, would they be allowed to wander the streets?

I genuinely don't know how I feel about this. I do feel extradition in a lot of cases is wrong. But I don't feel comfortable with people being allowed to not face the consequences of their decision because they claim to not understand the consequences.

I am really unhappy that any British citizen can be removed from this country with zero evidence. That really disturbs me.

My dd was attacked in school by a boy with Aspergers (aged 11) the school wouldn't do anything as 'he didn't understand it was wrong'. This happened multiple times and this was his mothers point of view. He can't help it so it's tough. The police were involved and told the school that if this boys diagnosis meant he put others in danger and couldnt be prevented from doing so, he shouldn't be in the school. That others don't have to suffer the consequences or be in danger from him.

From what I understand LL family don't think he should be just let off though either. Though I could have misunderstood that.

It's such a complex situation.

But gutted I am thinking of you and your family. My brothers situation wasn't as distressing as yours and it was incredibly difficult. I hope you are all OK.

None of us, least of all Lauri, want to escape justice or avoid a trial. Its just that extradition is firstly not necessary as the evidence is portable, and secondly would be extremely bad for his health, both physical and mental, and he wouldn't be able to prepare his defence sufficiently there. In the UK he can prepare his defence with his lawyers while on bail, with access to the information he is entitled to, as its supposed to be, and then let the British Courts decide justice.

Sorry about what happened to your brother Scooby that must have been very tough and horrible for you and your family.

Scooby you know the difference between right and wrong, that's great. Not everyone with ASD does, and if they do they still might not appreciate the consequences of wrongdoing. That doesn't mean they shouldn't face those consequences, of course, but any mitigating factors need to be appreciated and taken into account, not to 'let them off' but to ensure that the individual isn't at risk whilst undergoing the consequences. Which means in this case it's best dealt with in the UK.

So yes in this case perhaps sole use of computers will need to be prevented.

In the case of the 11 year old attacking your child then it's the school that had the duty of preventing those attacks. Of course nobody else should be affected by the boy's actions but provision should have been in place to meet his needs and/or prevent harm to others.

He is involved in Ethical Hacking (helping companies realise their security flaws - right now the group he is with have been finding the flaws in the NHS online security so it can be fixed) now so taking away computer use would be a waste of his skills. As my dad put it, he's a classic case of "the poacher turned gamekeeper"