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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To have taken this action with ds

127 replies

SEmyarse · 06/11/2016 09:09

I honestly don't know but I seem to have become heartbroken over doing what I thought was the right thing.

Ds is 20 and we have always got on like a house on fire. We've always chatted loads about everything. Maybe the background is a little relevant - I fell pregnant with him at 19 to a man that was severely disabled and terminally ill. I was told he probably wouldn't live to see the birth but he actully lived until ds was 9. Yes, I was incredibly silly falling pregnant in this way, but I've spent the whole of his life trying to do what was right by him. I ended up in a major legal battle to try to get his father living with us (took 5 years) and then another 5 years handling a very extensive care package to enable us to live together. I very definitely did this because I considered it the right thing to do for ds, but I'm not sure now due to other factors. We also had a second child - dd1.

After his dad died I remarried and had a third child, and despite all the early trauma in his life ds coped very well and got on great with his step father.

The only issue in his life was complete lack of motivation - ever. This became apparent throughout secondary school. He just wouldn't do anything, regardless of consequences. We regularly had teachers tearing their hair out with frustration (as was I) that work was never completed. He had many and varied sanctions, but nothing ever made a blind bit of difference (and I was rather cross with the school that they often gave him more and more chances, which undermined things).

My mother also paid for driving lessons for him. He took a few and despite saying he really wanted to drive, just stopped booking them. I have no idea why since he often expressed frustration that he wasn't driving. My mother was furious and after 18 months transferred them to his cousin who passed quickly. Ds expresses jealousy of his cousin.

So he left school with some great grades (from the subjects that had held his hand) and some completely missing subjects where he didn't complete coursework (one piece took 3 years and still didn't get done) and even an exam that he didn't turn up for.

Knowing how completely unmotivated he was I encouraged him to go to college to do a practical subject, but as soon as they met him and had his references from school explaining he's an extremely bright lad they persuaded him to take a-levels. He presents extremely well and can charm the birds from the trees.

His first year at college, he spent in the snooker club and on the skateramp. He decided to restart telling me he'd realised the error of his ways and changed. He went back to his old school and restarted at 6th form. This was worse, and he did nothing, and I started getting phone calls to say he was now disruptive, playing the clown. This was embarrassing, he was the oldest kid in the school. I told the school I would talk to him but that was realistically all I could do, if he was disruptive then they should ask him to leave. They didn't, they gave him chance after chance, and even after he got CEU grades when he was supposed to get CCC, they let him back on the course. All teachers say he was capable of As.

When he got a part time job I asked him to pay a small amount of rent in the hope that it might click that there were things in life that had to be done. He has always been expected to help out around the house also. He did these things without grumbling but without exception had to be asked to do them.

In April this year he dropped out of 6th form and was immediately given full time hours at his job, and also a promotion. I assume this means he works hard at his job (it's a cafe). I explained to ds that if he wanted to work in the cafe long term that was fine by me. He said that's absolutely not what he wanted to do and he wanted a career. I said that was fine, but because of history of not ever doing anything that I would have to be quite pushy with him. He would have to pay a more proportionate share of living costs (which he agreed was fair) and come up with some kind of plan of what he was going to pursue if he wanted to live here relatively cheaply as a step up into something else. I gave him until the end of July to tell me what the plan was, and if there was no plan that he would have to move out by the end of October. He agreed with this totally. Apart from anything else his sister's could do with separate rooms.

Things domestically went down hill. We had to chase his rent every month. He stopped doing anything around the house. He stopped communication about food so after many wasted dinners we stopped including him in dinner arrangements. He stopped doing even the small amount of housework he'd been doing. His room descended into squalor, and he only stayed here about 2 nights a week. If I ever tried to tackle any of these subjects he told me there was no point because he was moving out soon. He even refused to clear up when I had a landlord inspection.

July came and went with no response, so in August I had a chat with him and he confirmed he intended to move out at the end of October. I said I was going to have to be hard and strictly enforce this, because we were getting nowhere. He said he understood it was for his own good, he agreed he would carry on taking the mick otherwise. I cried, he could see I was extremely upset at having to ask him to move on. Despite the problems we chatted all the time and he got on great with his sisters.

So end of October, I could see no action of any kind and with a week to go he went to Budapest. He had 3 days left when he came back and he told me he'd got something sorted although he kept muttering about a room in a crack house. He said it was only for 3 months until he went to Australia. He's been talking about this for a while, but as with everything else I didn't believe it would happen. I was determined to stand firm and do what I thought was right for him and make him stand on his own feet at last. My husband thought maybe we should extend till after xmas but I was determined not to kick it down the road again, I didn't think we were doing him any favours.

At the last minute, it turned out that he's actually been offered the room at his friend's house (who's already gone to Australia) for zero rent. Apparently the other mum's of his friendship group think me getting him to pay his way was utterly unreasonable at his age (20) and were queuing up to take him in. He has now expressed (as never before) that he thinks I've treated him badly.

I am heartbroken. I was only trying to do this to help him - genuinely. I almost couldn't bear the thought of him not being around, we've been through a lot together, but I was determined to do what was best to help him grow up. If I'd known this was going to happen I wouldn't have asked him to move on.

OP posts:
PoppyPicklesPenguin · 06/11/2016 09:53

I don't think it does sound like he has had negative labels put on him, it sounds like he has been given many chances, a lot of encouragement to improve things or better himself and that he couldn't be arsed.

IMO and only going on what you have written to me it sounds like he has toyed with the idea but he just hasn't really wanted to do it.

To me it sounds like he has wanted to live in his mothers house for very little, have her tidy up after him, come and go as he pleases and spend the money he earns doing what he ever wants, such as trips to Budapest and Australia. He is now 20 years old not 16.

OP I would hope that the trip to Australia will be a good thing for him to find his feet and figure out in his head what he actually wants to do with his life, I think all you can do at the moment is "set him free" so to speak, I know that sounds twee I couldn't think of a better way to phrase it. let him live with the other parents, tell him you love him and wave him off it's good if he does what's required/behaves like the adult he is then he will hopefully (I really hope he does) really understand that he has been taking the piss out of you, not just say it in such a flippant way.

I will also be very surprised if any of the parents who know the full story (I'm sure his is very different) will think your being unfair or unreasonable.

l don't think chicken nuggets are a vegetable and that iPads should not be in bedrooms this makes me very cruel apparently Grin I would suggest that some of the comments from your son are very much being twisted to add a certain spin to his arguments

Maybe he will come back from Australia and peruse a career in law.

viques · 06/11/2016 09:53

Two possible outcomes.

He goes to live at his friends mother's house . Continues with his slovenly ways, She gets fed up. Kicks him out. he learns a hard lesson when you refuse to have him back and he has to rely on himself.

He goes to live at his friends mother's house. Mends his ways, is a clean, helpful lodger. he starts together his life back on track. You get your lovely son back for visits and lunch.

Either way he learns that actions have consequences.

ImperialBlether · 06/11/2016 09:57

I agree with viques. I think it's a win-win situation.

He learns to behave - great, that's what you wanted.

He doesn't learn to behave - they boot him out. I think any father in the house would struggle to put up with him being lazy and will surely question why he's actually there and not paying rent.

You'll get a rest from him - treat it as a bit of a holiday.

LittleMissMarker · 06/11/2016 10:02

the police force which I organised a cadet place for with very convoluted travelling arrangements to get him there. He's very talented at sport, and could work in that. Basically his people skills are amazing.

Maybe it's time to back off and stop organising things for him and let him use those people skills for himself.

My whole philosophy has always been that he could do literally anything.

What he did was work in a cafe and get promoted. Be happy at his successes and don't keep fretting about "what next?" It's as if you expect him to turn every little thing he does into a huge triumphant career. By average 20 year old standards he's doing fine as he is.

childmaintenanceserviceinquiry · 06/11/2016 10:03

I think you have done absolutely the right thing. You set a reasonable deadline and boundaries and are meeting it.

I do have to say though the charm and manipulation would worry me the most. It seems to be turned on to suit for personal gain with no thought for others and that's not very nice.

Shame too about the other children being dealt with differently by family members. It does seem as if your DS is very good at getting what he wants.

eyebrowsonfleek · 06/11/2016 10:06

Don't focus on what the other mums think about you. They aren't you and their children are not your son.
I'm inclined to think like viques. Play the long game and you end up with an adult who's learned a lesson and you get to enjoy your son's company again.

LittleMissMarker · 06/11/2016 10:09

By the way you need to get your DP onside - you both need to be singing from the same songsheet. Have the "it's for his own good" conversation with your DP not DS (of course DS wont agree).

SEmyarse · 06/11/2016 10:09

I tell you what really pushed me over the edge on the upset front.

Yes, I was more upset than I should have been about him moving somewhere for nothing when the whole point of the exercise was that the consequences of takng the piss was that he had to pay his way and pull his weight.

So he was supposed to have moved out on Monday. We didn't see him. He turned up on Tuesday and started packing, but his adoring little sister helped him (I suspect did most) and I heard him up in the loft. I told him that I suspected he was just stashing all his stuff in the loft and living out of a bag somewhere which I didn't find acceptable. He got all defensive, and then left to play football. I looked in his room and found about 60% had been packed. i text him saying I thought he'd left, his stuff needed to go.

On Wednesday I came back in to find him here using the shower which I was annoyed he was acting like he still lived here, but I didn't mention it. I asked him when his stuff was going and he said it was already clear, the room was empty. I was surprised and assumed he must have done it when I was at work. After he'd left I looked in his room, and every single thing was still there!!

I was really pissed off, and text him saying that since he was clearly still living here he needed to pay another week's rent. He text back saying 'you don't need the money, I do' which really tipped me over the edge. He's living for free and he knows I'm severely struggling after losing my second job 3 weeks ago. Something that actually made me reconsider letting him stay, just so we had his money coming in. I decided this was the wrong thing to do, it wasn't his fault I lost the job (the place shut) I should take the hit, it was written in stone that now was the time for him to move on, and I absolutely couldn't take advantage when it suited me.

He said he was moving his stuff on Friday. He didn't turn up. He came on Saturday while I was at work, and my husband transported it the 2 minutes down the road.

OP posts:
SEmyarse · 06/11/2016 10:14

DP totally agrees with the 'its for his own good' line, he's just much less good t following through when it comes to confrontation.

The cadet place thing was when he was 15. Yes, I organised it, and there's no way he could have got there by bus. We also sent him on this camp thing in Estonia when he was 16.

Since then, I really don't think I've done any practical organising at all, I 've made suggestions of things he might want to, but the ones that he's expressed and interest in havne't been followed through with any action.

OP posts:
SEmyarse · 06/11/2016 10:17

The ridiculousness is that he DID completely agree with me that this was for his own good. At one point he actually asked me to make sure I followed through with the deadline because he knew he couldn't trust himself to sort anything otherwise.

It's only now that he seems to have realised that no-one else has been paying their way that he thinks he's been badly treated.

OP posts:
WhereYouLeftIt · 06/11/2016 10:23

You've done everything you could (as did his school) and you need to stop beating yourself up. He's 20, it's up to him now. Maybe he'll continue to charm the birds from the trees for the rest of his life and live off the efforts of others forever, an eternal kidult/manchild. Maybe he won't. Whichever he does, it's not down to you.

You seem to believe that his attitude is your fault, and that you could somehow have changed it if you'd done x,y,z instead of the a,b,c at some crucial point in time that you didn't know about. Honestly, you couldn't. Children are not blank slates for us to form as we wish. Everyone is born with a personality and only they can change themselves. At best we can show them possibilities, but it's down to them to either embrace or reject these possibilities.

"He has now expressed (as never before) that he thinks I've treated him badly."
Well, that's because you were standing firm and not being swayed by his charm, wasn't it? All his life he's been given more and more chances (which he inevitably squandered) above and beyond what was reasonable. Consequences have been repeatedly deferred. For once - the consequence (for which he had full and fair warning) landed. Shocker for him. Never really happened before. BUT - and this is the crucial point - it is absolutely necessary for him to experience this. Your standing firm is the best thing you could have done for him. He needs to know he can't schmooze his way through life living off others. This may be his first encounter with a real consequence but it won't be his last.

If he genuinely thinks you have treated him badly, then he is out of touch with reality and the sooner he gets in touch the better. But I don't think he believes it really. I think he just wanted to punish you for not bowing down before the god that is him. Which is a little bit suggestive to me. It could be that it is merely childish spitefulness. Or it could be that he's got a manipulative streak, that maybe you should ponder on awhile. Think back, and I think you may well find instances where he's manoeuvred you and others into doing what he wants (more undeserved chances, deferring consequences) rather than what you had intended doing.

SEmyarse · 06/11/2016 10:30

I would say the majority of that is a fair assessment.

2 things stick out. He hasn't had the consequence has he? He's now got an easier life than before, saving rent and living in a much bigger nicer house. I don't know whetehr he'll be pandered to, but the culture round here is to do that, so I think it's entirely possible. I'm as much angry as upset that the final consequence has given him a major reward.

Secondly, the nature nurture debate's not that simple is it. I definitely have had influence on him, and maybe if I'd done something different I wouldn't have released another manchild onto the world. Certainly, it's often brought up on mn that menchildren are created by their ineffective mothers. I feel quite guilty about that.

OP posts:
Namechangeemergency · 06/11/2016 10:34

I think its very unlikely that parents were queuing up to house and look after him.
You DS sounds like a charmer and that gets him what he wants. This is not a bad thing in the long term but it makes life pretty difficult for you atm.

In the kindest way you really need to let go a bit.
Its not your fault he lost his dad. You were not 'stupid' to get pregnant by someone you loved. Why on earth would you think that?
I am reading your posts and I can't see anything really awful in them.
You have a charming, flaky, quite self obsessed son who can't work out what he wants at the age of 20.

It must of hurt when he told you that you treated him badly but were you digging for him to answer you? 'what have I done to deserve this?' 'I have always done my best for you, wasn't it enough?' etc?

You sound like you feel guilty and have been trying to make up for all the bad things his entire life.

Let him go, let him try and sort himself out and let him grow up a bit.

Don't worry about him doing well whilst living with another family. That does't mean you have failed. It means you have managed to raise him well.
Parents are not always the right people to sort their adult children out. Anything we do feels interfering and suffocating.

If you relax about this and let go of a lot of your feelings you will feel a weight lift off your shoulders.

Namechangeemergency · 06/11/2016 10:36

Cross post with your last one.
Yep. You need to let go of that guilt! Blimey woman talk about catasrophising! (sp)

Believe me, I know all about that.

Trifleorbust · 06/11/2016 10:37

The tough love you are giving your son now may be the best thing anyone ever does for him. He needs to grow up. You are helping him to do this. Ignore anyone who moans - you know you are acting in his best interests.

WhereYouLeftIt · 06/11/2016 10:41

Just read your updates (I took a very long time to write my post).

He's trying to ignore that he no longer lives there, and manipulate you into not acting Angry. It's Sunday. I would go to his room, get all his stuff and put it outside the front door. I'm sure his new landlady will be delighted to come and pick it up.

Tell him to hand over his keys. You'll be delighted to have him come over to visit, but visitors don't need keys. If you can't get his key, then change the lock. Changing the barrel on a Yale-type lock takes minutes to do and can be bought for £10 (link).

It's time for Golden Boy to grow the fuck up.

Namechangeemergency · 06/11/2016 10:43

Sorry where I basically repeated most of the stuff you have put in your post! Smile

GnomeDePlume · 06/11/2016 10:46

Is some of your frustration with him that he is the age you were when you had him? You had to grow up as you had a child to care for. For you 19 was fully grown up. Does it have to be the same for him? 19/20 is still very young. It is also a transitional age. Legally a grown up but for some still very much stuck in the baby bird mode - mouth open waiting to be fed.

My DS went to a party last night. I very clearly pointed out to him that if there was any trouble the consequences to him would be those of an adult.

It is hard for those young people who dont have a plan from when they are 16. In many ways these are the people who need the most help but get the least.

It is easy if you are an A level student with your heart set on going to university. Keep your head down, get your work done then it is off to uni. No major decisions about life plans needed until your early 20s.

If you dont have that then you need to start making decisions far earlier about what course your life is going to take. And this group seems to get the least advice and support.

QueenLizIII · 06/11/2016 10:47

The problem is DC and adult DC behave in ways with their parents and take liberties with them that they wouldnt with anyone else. That is because there is a line to be drawn with people who arent family and they know not to cross it.

For a child being told off by a teacher or other adult is different to being told off by mum and they are more likely to take notice.

He way well behave impecably at the new house. Nothing you can do and tbh who cares what they think. You know the truth. That you supported him and encouraged him all along.

SEmyarse · 06/11/2016 10:53

Whoever said I fell pregnant with someone I loved? No I was just young and stupid.

I then married him because I come from a very religious background, and this is what must be done. This of course lead to me taking on the whole care burden as well as the baby we'd produced.

He wasn't a bad man, and because of his disability it would have been very difficult for him to have a relationship with his son while he lived in a care home, so I guess the right thing happened. But for me? Should I have married him from an emotional point of view? No. I thought I loved him, and in some ways grew to, but actually I didn't know what I was doing. I was however highly principled and refused to let his disability stand in the way, so fought through the system to live as a family, because I thought he should be allowed to.

OP posts:
ShteakandShpuds · 06/11/2016 10:56

Been there, got the T-shirt! Try not to worry too much as I strongly suspect he will sort himself out when it suits him to do so.
My middle step DS was similar (birth mum died, dropped out of school/college/Uni, had druggie pals, DJ'd, dossed, lived in a squalid damp flat for a while...)
Around his mid twenties, he met a lovely girl (Med student) and sorted himself out. He's mid thirties, moved to London where he was recently headhunted by a rival firm and still with his lovely hardworking Doctor girlfriend. I couldn't be happier for him.

BlueFolly · 06/11/2016 10:56

You know what - the other mother may take care of him, he may be rewarded from this. He may go through life charming and using people until they wise up. However, letting him stay with you would not prevent this from happening.

You have done the right thing.

WhereYouLeftIt · 06/11/2016 10:57

No need for an apology Namechange, two people reached the same conclusion on the information presented to them.Great minds Wink.

SEmyarse if he's in such a great place why hasn't he moved his stuff there and why is he showering at yours? Either he isn't moved to a great place (consequence) or he's trying to make you take him back (manipulative).

Yes we influence our children, but so does everything in their environment. This is a trivial example. I'm Scottish, I live in England, my son was born and raised here. He has not a hint of my very strong accent, because his accent is also influenced by everyone who's ever talked to him. No hint whatsoever, my 'influence' in this matter is completely overridden by all the other influences. Bad parenting can screw a child and leave them in need of therapy, but good parenting allows them to grow into their own personality. You have been a good parent. He has grown to be himself. It's a hard thing to admit, that you couldn't have done anything to make him 'better', but none of us can. You have taken to heart the meme of 'a mother's place is in the wrong' . Please reject it, his behaviour is not your fault.

Hadjab · 06/11/2016 10:57

Absolutely not unreasonable. He can't see it now, but he will one day, and he'll thank you

KateAdiesEarrings · 06/11/2016 10:59

The only part I think was UR was that despite all the evidence to the contrary, you thought the Oct deadline would suddenly transform your son into someone else. You thought it would make him buck up his ideas when his pattern has shown that he would always take the easiest path.

You have spent a lot of your OP justifying your decisions and your view of your son. I don't know if that's because you're wracked with guilt or because you're consciously misrepresenting some facts but overall I have the impression that you're not facing the reality of your relationship with your son.

I don't know if throwing him out was a good idea. My DF put nearly all of my siblings out of the house at various points. It didn't make any of them respect him more or have any substantial impact on their actions or who they were as people. It just made us all wary of him. It sends a message to the siblings at home as much as it does to the one you have made move out.

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