To feel jealous of friends/family able to educate their kids privately

[NewDay10]

Just that really. I know IABU to feel this way. I could go back to work and pay school fees and educate my kids privately. We've chosen for me to be a SAHM. I've just been looking at Facebook and can't believe how many of my friends educate their kids at prep level privately. Also I don't know how they afford it?! E.g. One couple both are teachers (state school) but still educate their kids privately. I'm feeling bitter. IABU and need to be happy as it really is a first world problem. We have great state schools here. I also know this debate has been done so many times on MN! So sorry to the veterans!

User - smaller class sizes aren't necessarily better.

But more homogeneous classes are always easier for the teacher.

I have very high ability DC and they are given work well beyond the curricula by their teachers. Their teachers have the time to do this because the rest of the class is rather homogeneous (e.g. most kids likely to get A/A star), because they don't have Ofsted etc breathing down their necks, and because they get more free periods for lesson preparation than state school teachers would do. I wouldn't call the teachers "better" (although it is definitely the case that my DC's school can be much more choosy about teachers, even in shortage subjects, than some state schools) but the teachers have working better conditions.

As an academic I go into a lot of schools and I (obviously) see a lot of pupils entering universities. The top private schools have the resources and time for their teachers to teach well beyond the curriculum in depth and breadth. Parents are fooling themselves if they believe that state schools (grammar or not) can possibly offer the same as these schools. So many parents measure education by A level and GCSE grades only - yet what my DC are receiving is a personalised education that goes well beyond the constraints of the national curriculum.

You don't seem to know very much about the best state schools, which compare very favourably with many private schools. Also all teachers are qualified, unlike in private schools.

Um, yes, I really do know about state schools - most of my students come from the state sector and I can see exactly what they have been taught.

You also seem pretty ill-informed by mentioning the red herring about "qualified teachers". You do know that schools such as Eton and Harrow recruit PhD educated science teachers, who have lectured and taught in higher education (receiving training there), and then provide in house training for them which goes well beyond PGCE? You also know that they have the resources to provide for continued professional development - attending training courses at universities about the latest developments in education research etc?

Teachers at state schools themselves would admit that their facilities and resources are not excellent or even sufficient, given all the cuts in funding. I'm not sure why you would argue otherwise.

User but Eton and Harrow are top private schools and not representative of all private schools. I fully accept the points you make about funding and the impact that has....bit again, I do question whether it makes as much difference as people think. I have seen a lot of (pretty egregious) waste in private schools as they compete in what one very famous public school headmaster termed "an arms race". Does a 6 year old child need a specialist pottery teacher? Or to run around on an AstroTurf sports pitch? Or to be able to have bassoon and tuba lessons in school? Or to have a professionally equipped theatre for his nativity play? All of these things are nice, I don't deny, but I question the absolute core educational benefit that they bring.

I would not be jealous OP its very hard for me to put my daughter through school and I think every term of nicer places to spend all that money.( 44 months and counting until she leaves school) But its a choice we made and I have to suck it up. You chose to be a SAHM enjoy every minute .

natalia I think a lot of what is provided by private schools falls into the nice-to-have category, rather than utterly imperative.

That said, I'm not averse to nice-to-have stuff. I certainly don't constrain myself to essentials in my own life/ongoing education. And my own DC have definitely benefited directly from some of the extra shizzle.

But I think the issue is not whether private schools spend too much and provide too many resources, but more the other side of the coin; state schools are being starved of money and resources. Parents can deny it until they're blue in the face, but the teaching profession don't. Nor do academics at tertiary level.

Like user I have a lot of direct and current experience of state education (I teach in a very selective university and I visit tons of secondary schools). And the unpalatable truth is that the gap between the sectors is wide.

arethereanyleftatall

'Nothing will dissuade me from my belief'
Followed by
'I'm not sure how my posts are arrogant.'
Can you not see the irony?

No, I can't. It's an opinion based on years of research, stats and personal experience.

is that I do not want them to finish school with this abhorrent attitude that they are better than anyone else

If that's directed at me then I don't believe I'm better than everyone else but that the school is better than most.

You don't seem to know very much about the best state schools, which compare very favourably with many private schools. Also all teachers are qualified, unlike in private schools.

No one has said that every public school is better than every state school. The indisputable facts are that the highest achieving children come from public school and the lowest from the state sector.

I think my comments toward Andy, based on his comments towards children (would have been water off a duck's back should it have targeted me) were justified.

I think the comments about unqualified teachers at public schools stems from old perceptions where teachers in the public sector were often emplyed based on their academic standing and not teaching qualifications. Any public school worth their salt would look for years of experience, PGCEs and Masters before you got an interview. I'd like to see any facts against this and not simply a MN'er's opinion.

NataliaOsipova
Perhaps I should put you in touch?

Why? I don't teach.

He has said he's able to offer his students a superior education. We agree. Would it be a mutual appreciation society event?

"argue the toss" is directed at spurious claims that most public schools don't offer a superior education when every statistic worth reading suggests they do. People who argue against public schools tend to do so because of their principles, with horrible comments about the children who attend or basic misinformation such as unqualified teachers or state school children performing better at Uni. At least the former is admirable. The latter two are, as I said, a waste of time.

I apologise for calling your opinion (however wrong ( ) insignificant. Some of your posts haven't been pillars of thought out reason and virtue either.

NataliaOsipova - I agree with your post of 11.46. And there is something a bit Trump Tower vulgar and ostentatious about the facilities and equipment in some private schools. Bigger is not always better in education and learning how to progress within certain resource constraints is an absolutely crucial life lesson.

Well eh yes bobo chic, but I think it's much easier to progress further in education without the additional hurdle of resource constraints. Nothing admirable about making kids struggle in that regard and there is nothing vulgar or ostentatious about children having access to good educational facilities.

Sorry that should have been to Natalia!

Aibohphobia I meant you'd benefit from the course! My posts may not be, to quote, "pillars of virtue and reason" but I can differentiate between fact and opinion and I can present an argument without resorting to calling other people names....

I think it's much easier to progress further in education without the additional hurdle of resource constraints. Nothing admirable about making kids struggle in that regard and there is nothing vulgar or ostentatious about children having access to good educational facilities.

Don't get me wrong - I agree with you on this (this is why I'm a fee payer!). I just think a lot of the resources these schools have (which are huge, as the fees are high) are squandered on fripperies rather than being used for the maximum educational advantage of the children. Nice to have is, indeed, nice (to state the bleeding obvious!), but my point is that, in my opinion at least, the educational gap between good state schools and private schools is less than people like to make out. To use a car analogy - if your aim is to get down the M1 as fast as possible, you will do better in a brand new Mercedes than you will in a clapped out 10 year old banger. Unarguable. But in a brand new Ford/Nissan (or whatever) versus a Merc with tinted windows, a personalised numberplate, metallic paint, tinted windows and diamond encrusted seats? There might not be all that much in the time you got to the Watford Gap services, even if you arrived in less style and comfort.

I suppose I just don't think it's meaningful to compare "state" and "private", to be honest. All you can do is look at individual schools.

If anything has been proved by this thread, it is that public school enables an attitude of we are superior to you !

This is clearly seen from Aibohphobia refusal to apologize to myself and other posters. Public school educated people are generally very'obstinate' in their opinions not surprising when they are continually told they are the best.

This again highlighted by the misinformed statement that the highest attaining pupils come from the ' Public School' system !

Thank goodness you are not still a Deputy Head in the state system , though perhaps you saw that as 'Penance' before decamping to the 'Public' school system.

Finally you obviously make assumptions of people , by calling me Andy and guessing that i am a he !

Wrong ....

Does a 6 year old child need a specialist pottery teacher? Or to run around on an AstroTurf sports pitch? Or to be able to have bassoon and tuba lessons in school? Or to have a professionally equipped theatre for his nativity play?

My own opinion is that they don't and I run a mile from schools that invest a lot of money in "unnecessary" facilities or activities that serve little purpose (e.g. dedicated teachers of niche subjects for very young children). But teachers having the time/resources to prepare extra stuff for my DC is (for us) well worth the money we pay.

state schools are being starved of money and resources. Parents can deny it until they're blue in the face, but the teaching profession don't. Nor do academics at tertiary level.

This ^^. And it's getting far worse. Sixth form colleges are now forced to give pupils only 5 hours per week of tuition in three subjects. Meanwhile my DC's school offers four plus subjects (wherever appropriate, as with new A level starting with three is appropriate for some subject combinations) as well as co-curricular tuition, broadening and deepening knowledge and skills.

A scientist from my DC's schools might not end up with higher A level grades, but they will have had many more opportunities for writing, communicating, studying literature, languages and social sciences while in sixth form. We are failing our young people by not providing better 16-19 education in the state sector.

Bertrand. If you are reading this thread , why are we are fighting over the ownership of a 'loaf' of bread (regarding grammar schools). This while the elite gorge themselves on 'Champagne and Caviar'. Defined as such by £35k PA public schools , unimpeded access to the City and other carers defining their continued 'hegemony' over the public or the non public school educated.

Defined as such by £35k PA public schools , unimpeded access to the City and other carers defining their continued 'hegemony' over the public or the non public school educated.

Private day schools (even top ones like Westminster) don't cost £35k per year.

I don't work in the City and neither does GetaHairCurl. She didn't attend a public school, neither did her partner and neither did mine. I did, but my parents didn't pay a penny as I had an academic scholarship. (As my DC do too.)

The real issue in state education at the moment is lack of funding, not grammar v comprehensive. The grammar debate is in part to distract parents from the funding cuts in schools - yet again, trying to put the blame on something else when the real issue is that there's not enough money from the government.

holme4andy

If anything has been proved by this thread, it is that public school enables an attitude of we are superior to you !

But we are superior to you. I've never had issues with children because of their education. You have real issues as other posters have pointed out.

This is clearly seen from Aibohphobia refusal to apologize to myself and other posters.

"I apologise for calling your opinion [Natalia] insignificant." Hmm!

Public school educated people are generally very 'obstinate' in their opinions

I've no doubt you'll have wonderful examples of obstinate public school children but no one has given weak generalisations of state school children as their defence of choosing to pay for their child's education. Either that means all state schooled children are wonderful or that reverse snobbery and bigotry is prevalent.

not surprising when they are continually told they are the best [educated].

Fixed that for you. Before I fixed it though, what proof do you have that these children are continually told they're better than others?

Thank goodness you are not still a Deputy Head in the state system , though perhaps you saw that as 'Penance' before decamping to the 'Public' school system.

I learnt an enormous amount as a deputy under a wonderful head. My time as a deputy was at a wonderful school where nearly every student and their families were fantastic. I excelled at my job. It was no form of "penance". I enjoyed it enormously but wanted to progress my career. I had the opportunity to do it in either sector but my reasons for moving from state to private were purely financial in terms of my salary and the benefits to my children. Whilst we could have afforded school fees with my husband's salary, it's highly frowned upon when you work at a state school to send your children to a public school.

Finally you obviously make assumptions of people , by calling me Andy and guessing that i am a he!

Wrong ....

That's comment-worthy? Really? I don't think I'd even considered it. Perhaps it was subconscious as I only know male Andys. Is it important in the slightest? Perhaps it is to you as all public schooled girls make assumptions all the time...

unimpeded access to the City

Honestly not true (in my experience, anyway). At least not since about 1986, when all the Americans came over! Or not in any serious job, anyway. It's hugely international (so most people wouldn't have heard of your school, unless it was Eton or Harrow) and ruthless in hiring/firing practices. If your dad is a big shot and there's a commercial advantage to a big bank giving you a job? Of course. No problem. But "He went to my old school?" So what?

If anything has been proved by this thread, it is that public school enables an attitude of we are superior to you !

"But we are superior to you."

I'm so glad irony is still on the curriculum at our top schools. Wouldn't want it sidelined by all that bassoon-playing and pottery.

Why have you changed your name mid thread ?

YABU... but so am i. i so desperately wanted this for our kids. but my husbands jobs means if i got a job so we could afford it the kids would be in childcare/school from 7:30am-5pm every day, and the holidays and i don't want that for them when they don't have to. can't have it all i'm afraid!

EssentialHummus

That was specific to a specifically unpleasant individual on this thread. It didn't refer to all state school educated people.

holme4andy

Why have you changed your name mid thread ?

I have numerous aliases on MN as many do. That was a genuine mistake and not meant to mislead anyone as to my identity.

This thread did well to get as far as it did but it's predictably become what it is.

Good luck to all (esp. you OP), whatever choices you make.

Andy, I hope you get help with your problems.

user I agree that the changes at AS level are being used by too many schools to justify pupils taking only three A levels from year 12, with the least amount of contact time possible.

It's being portrayed as A Good Thing. More independent study, a longer period to cover the curriculum, less subjects =better grades. But really it's just a cost cutting exercise.

What Problems ....

Gosh, this is getting a bit nasty and for no good reason. Your kids are all still going to the same schools at the end of the day. You simply need to make choices uou are happy with based on the cards you hold.. Slagging off someone else's choice is a bit daft. Especially when it's a stranger and you don't even know the schools involved.

Natalia, I agree with uou it's about individual schools not generalisations. There is vast differences in the public sector as well as the state.

As for some private schools having so much, yes I agree but many times it's to do with attracting parents and competing for pupils and having the right facilities does attract many parents than a school which may have less and both have the same level results and reports.

Whatsyourname ? you are clearly a very unpleasant person .

Choosing a target then espousing horrible and untruthful remarks towards that target shows you in a very negative light. The remarks also play up to the stereotypical attitudes of public school educated 'ARSES'.