To feel jealous of friends/family able to educate their kids privately

[NewDay10]

Just that really. I know IABU to feel this way. I could go back to work and pay school fees and educate my kids privately. We've chosen for me to be a SAHM. I've just been looking at Facebook and can't believe how many of my friends educate their kids at prep level privately. Also I don't know how they afford it?! E.g. One couple both are teachers (state school) but still educate their kids privately. I'm feeling bitter. IABU and need to be happy as it really is a first world problem. We have great state schools here. I also know this debate has been done so many times on MN! So sorry to the veterans!

I feel like this too but I am already working and we can't afford it so it's not likely to change. My DS1 is really bright and used to love school - he now hates it and we can't change unless we send him to private. It's heartbreaking to see him lose all his love for studying.

Let me tell you my son went to an independent primary then top selective secondary. He was and is a lazy bugger and spent his time gaming so came out with B's at GCSE. Nothing wrong with that but nothing that couldn't have been achieved at a decent state school, one of which he was offered a place in.

I think as parents we often don't see the bigger picture. My nephew left school at 16 with a couple of gcses, went straight into property and has become extremely successful, why? He has a gift for networking and a good measure of chutzpah. Although I understand how you feel, it really isn't the end of the world.

bounty that link is now out of date. The figures in the study were incorrect and did not show what was said.

So it is quite untrue to say that state schooled students do better at university.

However, if it were true, that clearly would not be evidence that state school was better preparation. It would be far more nuanced than that, including the fact that too many state schooled applicants undersell themselves and take places on courses for which they are way too qualified.

It's also worth considering why, if state schooled students do better at university, they are under represented in the industries which have greatest influence on society at a macro level; law, politics, finance, medicine, science, business, media, publishing etc.

The truth is that of course those in state schools can do well academically and later in their careers. That goes without saying. But pretending that there is no benefit academically or in certain careers to going to private school is just silly.

It makes people feel better to believe that. But it ain't true.

However I do think the status of going to X school is something that stays a positive attribute for life, in the same way growing up in a rough inner city housing estate will also follow you around.

I don't think this will be true even in 10 years time. Globalisation has meant that our kids will be competing for jobs with kids from all around the world - and, unless you went to one of a handful of hugely famous schools, where you went to school will mean nothing. All that will matter is how smart you are.

I don't think it is private school that gives the advantage, it is the wealth/affluence that allows the private schooling that is the main issue.

Completely agree with this, though. Children of wealthy parents have more opportunities than children of poor parents because money can buy those opportunities. I think it's as simple as that. The private school thing is an extreme example of stratification because it is so expensive.

Indeed, Natalia. Some children are privileged from conception. However, we cannot mitigate for that privilege whilst still allowing people a reasonable degree of autonomy in their lives.

nathalia I don't think it's the name of the school which confers long lasting benefit but having spent so much time in a particular environment.

As for wealth, well yes, DC raised in wealthy families will have access to many things that assist their academic careers and working lives. But I don't think you can dismiss the schooling so easily and say those same DC would end up doing the same things wherever they went to school.

It's a slippery mixture of wealth, opportunity and school environment IMVHO.

Please don't use the word "sacrifices" to describe any economies people might make to enable them to pay private school fees!

The state school/private school & educational attainment thing:

www.independent.co.uk/news/education/education-news/university-funding-body-made-disturbing-blunder-with-claim-state-school-students-perform-better-a6718201.html

This is a good explanation of the hoo-ha over the figures. Note the last two paragraphs in particular.

I worked in sales so was on 70k (gross) 4 days a week. I could go back but being a SAHM was because my husband's job is also long hours and pressure. Sales jobs involve a lot of hours e.g. I got a very good base salary and car etc but much of my earnings were commission based. I'm a SAHM because of illness with my eldest child. I've taken on board above. In addition my SILs are both SAHMs and educate their kids privately. Their husbands just earn a lot more! We have an excellent primary. I think As I have a toddler I want to give the toddler the same time at home as I did with my eldest. In saying that I should really look to go back to work soon. I'm a bit all over the place. I need some inner smugness for sure!! I love that term.

shove the last two paragraphs are just a massive covering arse exercise.

A huge, yet incorrect claim was made. But oh no, that doesn't matter... Same conclusion anyway .

The devil as ever is in the detail. Private school pupils scoop up more of those 'highest' grades. Then they scoop up more of those uber competitive places at university.

@Minifingers

Maybe we could start with an acknowledgement that the spend per head at private schools...is more than double the spend per head than is given to educate a child in a state school.

Acknowledged. More than triple in many cases.

[parents] who send their children private do so because they believe that this level of spending is necessary to secure a good education for a child.

Better, yes. Although good state educations are available. Cars are better than buses. Buses can be good. Not everyone can afford a car.

As many have attested on this thread alone, their children are thriving in the state system and conversely there are terrible public schools.

So perhaps as a society we should agree on a level of spending per child

Are you seriously suggesting that there should be a cap on spend per head? Would this include tutoring? Extra-curricular activities? Holidays with a modicum of educational benefit? How about children who need more than their 'fair' share spent on them because of SEN or whatever else?

We could have an 'education tax' to help fund this.

My family pay a fuck-ton of tax anyway, part of which does pay for state school education or are you saying there should be an additional tax on school fees?

"Your dc's school on the other hand might as well pin a sign outside saying "poor low achieving children 100% absent from this school"

Why would I want to do that? It would be plain nasty and I like to think of myself as fairly compassionate.

[your children] will never come into contact with socially disadvantaged children. Your children are effectively being raised in a privileged ghetto

Interesting. The photo attached is where my eldest was last week, playing with children. There was no patronising of the children they visited: it simply grounding my students, helping them understand the divides in the world and how lucky they are. The children they play and work with love it too and it's beneficial for all involved. Our swimming pool is used every Tuesday morning by the local school. Not for tax breaks (there are none) but to help the community.

Sadly it's children like yours who have no experience or meaningful contact with the full range of human beings who make up our society, who go on to take up positions of power and influence in business, the arts, science and government.

Ignoring the fact that you have no idea what kind of upbringing my children are having and will continue to have, ignoring the nastiness with which you describe their ghetto of privilege and the ignorance you've shown guessing what their life is like, would you not agree that in fact my children are aware of the extreme poverty in the world, have seen it first hand and are actually very well placed to do something about it?

I haven't made any snide remarks about you or your children and why would I. You have though. We can but guess as to why.

My children understand the extremes of wealth and poverty (and live somewhere in the middle) and have witnessed it. They understand how lucky they are, have a fantastic education and, as you so eloquently said, go on to take up positions of power and influence.

I think I'm on the right track.

I'd love to hear your comments.

Op, this is just a single observation, so not a fact applying to all pupils, however it was eye opening to me. On facebook you can click in the search bar when you are on a persons page, and select see pictures, said person has liked. My daughter fully state eduacated, had 'liked' pictures of girls, boys, trans. A Friends daughter fully privately educated, had 'liked' only girls faces.

Is that what happened, i thought, was her field of view restricted to faces that only looked similar to her own? My daughters friends at school, were from different backgrounds, different countries*, and different sexual orientations, these differences brought more joy to her/our life than I could ever tell you about. Now in sixth form she is mentoring a girl from yet another country, an amazing experience for both of them.

You'd have to factor in childcare - if hours are unpredictable and no family help then you'd need a nanny. Not trying to be be negative but 70k gross won't do two sets of school fees and a nanny.

Im state educated as is my husband. What got us into rg universities and relatively good careers was the knowledge that our parents wouldve killed is if we hadnt gotten into a 'good' uni. Good old fashioned emphasis of the value of a good education and fear of disappointing our parents got us through life. Op id say if you want to prioritise funding of private school then do so. Yr kids may pick up on your worries and that could hold them back

So I went to look up the actual stats - see table H1, figure H2:

www.hefce.ac.uk/media/HEFCE,2014/Content/Pubs/2015/201521/HEFCE2015_21h.pdf

What this shows (at least as far as I can make out) is that up to A-level results of AAC, state school pupils with the same A-level results tend to outperform those who have been to independent schools. Above that bracket, the difference between the two groups is very narrow. Independent school pupils tend to do a little better, though at the very top it's actually state school kids with AAAA that do best (only by 1% though! So I imagine not that statistically significant?).

It's hard to figure out the significance of the headline figures at the top of the table, because there's a load of data at the bottom under the 'Other' category where there is a large (nearly 20%!) and unexplained difference between the two groups that must be significantly distorting this.

Of course, this is about attainment at degree level, so the fact that kids are more likely to get higher grades at A-level from independent than state schools isn't factored in. (You could argue that this raises questions about whether we should have differential admissions, with lower grades for state-educated pupils to re-level the playing field).

Another caveat: very little about worldly success has to do with being academically brilliant. Private schools bring huge advantages when it comes to networking and in a nepotistic world that is also full of conscious and unconscious class bias, this is a big deal. Yet another caveat: there are state schools and state schools. A highly successful and postcode-selective state school in central London is not the same as your average comprehensive in a poor area.

It's worth bearing in mind that the criterion for success here is a VERY broad one: an upper second or a first class degree is an extremely wide category. The lowest 2.1 is hardly the same thing as the highest first.

We could do it using part of DH salary we have left over but no savings!!! Wouldn't need a nanny. Hours for work can be done in evenings etc not just during the school day. 70k was the minimum I earned when working 4 days. When I worked full time was close to 90ish. We're not down south and independent school is very nearby. I was intrigued that prep school is advantageous for grammar. I wonder how many kids from prep school get into Grammar schools and how much better they perform at the 11+ in comparison to state educated? So much pressure on a young child to do the 11+ and they're all tutored I expect from a prep and private background?

The photo attached is where my eldest was last week, playing with children. There was no patronising of the children they visited: it simply grounding my students, helping them understand the divides in the world and how lucky they are.

aiboh, from a reverse image search this seems to be a photo from the Philippines, and I presume your eldest was on a school tour out there. For one, the idea of a handful of - I'm trying to choose my words carefully - entitled, privileged young people learning about the "divides in the world" by flying to the other side of the planet and visiting a slum sticks in my craw. There is poverty much closer to home (though presumably it would make for less pleasant photos in the school magazine).

If a school has a genuine commitment to teaching their students about poverty, they can do so much more effectively, cheaply, and with a longer-term impact to the targeted community, without leaving this country. Unless the students just wanted a fun overseas trip, of which this formed a part? Fine, but it's straying into Lady Bountiful territory.

FWIW, I was privately educated (abroad) and barring exceptional circumstances my DC will be going to a state school. I worked as a solicitor in the City, and my impression of public school students - both those that came for a placement with Daddy's chum, and those that I worked with - was negative. Being unable to get along with people different from themselves was a huge one.

I'd like my children to see that people are, to put it mildly, different. Not everyone has a nice car and house, not everyone spends holidays abroad, no everyone is the same as you or I. It's important in this world to be able to rub along with all sorts of people, and I think sustained lived experience of that over the longer term is far more beneficial than a week in the Philippines.

We live in Asia @EssentialHummus. Not The Philippines though.

Slightly ironic that I haven't shown an ounce of prejudice in this thread although you and Minifingers have.

Well, I dislike dirty oiks from the local council estate with their glottal stops and footballer hairstyles.*

The above is clearly untrue. For me to suggest such a thing would be terrible bigotry, wouldn't it? I mean, what kind of person generalised based purely on the school a child attended.

my impression of public school students - both those that came for a placement with Daddy's chum, and those that I worked with - was negative.

Why would you want to educate your kids privately?

I was privately educated (not in the UK but in 3 different countries, I think you can guess the result, sigh... I am fluent in French and German, but my English is rather terrible). DH was privately educated as well, I don't think it was a big advantage. It honestly doesn't seem to matter.

I am happy my husband was privately educated, yes. Simply because that's how I met him (he went to school with a cousin).

Honestly OP, stop worrying. As long as your kids are in a safe environment it probably won't matter. My homelife was sometimes rather terrible and unstable. I feel like this had a much bigger impact on me than my schooling....

so much pressure on a young child to do the 11+ and they're all tutored I expect from a prep and private background?

My kids are at grammar (one with the highest pass mark in the year) from a bog standard state school and no paid tutoring-just me going through some techniques with him. It doesn't have to be the way you describe at all.

If you earnt £70k minimum on 4 days-why don't you compromise and do a 0.4 or 0.5 week?

Here the state schools are crap. Absolute crap. We're sending our son 15 miles away for private education. We love our house but hell will freeze before we put him a school around here. Will hopefully sell up next year to make it easier. You do your best for your kids.

Doing 4 days I found I was working more on evenings to compensate but not getting the basic salary benefit. So I'm reluctant to do less. Also going back I think would be hard to find an employer take me back part time. Also have to decide on 3rd baby?? That would totally write off any private education for current 2 DC as I would never put two through and not the third.

What does your dh earn?

Weird. You are a sahm and have a great state school but you're jealous of the friends who choose private? confused

Ha ha, I'm a SAHM with kids at the best state school in the country and my friends who chose private are jealous of me

TBH newday it's not the length of a working day that's often the problem but the holidays.

22 weeks off is not uncommon. That's a lot of time. Very few manage that without decent childcare.