who was being unreasonable? stranger told my son off (shouted in his face)

[FindingEmo]

I'm not sure if the woman was unreasonable or if i was.

It is my son's 3rd birthday today and we went to a theme park to celebrate. Ds2 had fallen asleep in his pushchair so dh stayed with him while I queued up for a ride with ds1. Behind us was a couple with a little girl probably about 6 or 7 yo. Early on ds1 said hi to her and she didn't reply so after that he ignored her. It was near the end of the day and he was tired so held him most of the time but towards the end he got excited to get on the ride and got down. The girl was stood by the barrier looking through a gap and Ds went up and stood by her and tried to look too. The girl moved and ds only being 3 followed her and they both tried to look through a gap again. Obviously i was close by as we were queuing. All of a sudden The woman leans down and yells no don't do that just inched from ds face. Ds starts crying and I grabbed hold of him. Straight away I yelled at the woman for doing that to my son and she said well no one else was going to tell him off. I asked why he needed telling off and she said ds had bitten her daughter. I didn't see it and id been watching them also the girl hasn't reacted at all, no crying saying ow or even moving away. I told the woman she should have told me if she saw ds doing something she didn't like and I would have sorted it. We both yelled for a bit (she got right in my face) until i turned my back on her to end it and she didnt try and continue it. I know my son isn't an angel and can be naughty but as far as I'm aware he didn't bite the girl but even if he did was I wrong to yell at the woman for shouting in ds face. He sobbed for the rest of the queue, luckily he cheered up when we got on the ride.

If I saw one child attempt to bite another on the face I would do more than calmly say "Can you stop that please, where's your mummy?" I probably would shout, out of alarm and in order to stop the bite.

Can you stop that please, where's your mummy?" I probably would shout, out of alarm and in order to stop the bite.

Not least because by the time you'd thought about it and got that wishy washy mouthful out the child would have already sunk their teeth in as it would have had no deterrent effect.

Well exactly. Bites happen very quickly as I recall.

Trifleorbust, I think it probably sounds hysterical to you, because it's uncomfortable to acknowledge how primally threatening it is. I didn't say it was abuse, I said it was abusive. There is a difference.

Getting into anyone's face, adult or child and yelling at them, is abusive behaviour. To pretend it isn't on a parenting website, is just beyond the pale AFAIC.

I'm sure some parents have done it and that doesn't mean that in of themselves, they are abusive parents; but it isn't right to validate that behaviour and pretend there's nothing wrong with it. There is, there really is. This is a parenting website and we should be trying to support each other to parent well; that means being supportive and acknowledging that sometimes we all lose our shit with our kids; sometimes we are abusive towards them (I've yelled at my kids loads); but that's not OK. We can support without validating IYSWIM.

Have never actually got in their faces and shouted though. That's really horrible, it's upsetting to think some people think that's normal, appropriate discipline of a child.

If she did it on instinct she wouldn't have had time to take several steps forward lean down to his level and yell in his face.
Several steps forward OP?
Really?
So was she close enough to have seen the bite?

I don't see the difference between abuse and abusive, Basil. It's sometimes OTT, it's sometimes unnecessary, but unless you are outright aggressive it is not abuse to raise your voice.

But that's my point.

In someone's face is outright aggressive.

So in fact, we're in agreement

I agree with everything squigglegate has written.

basil, I don't think anyone has actually said it's okay to shout in the face of anyone, but we are saying raised voices and shouting are justified at times.

Basil, what do you mean by 'in someone's face'? I would agree that getting up close and personal whilst screaming at someone is always inappropriate. Being near them, not so much. What do you think is meant?

If I saw a child bite mine too right I would shout a loud "No! Don't bite!" I wouldn't say "No, dear, don't do that it's not nice." in a bright cheery tone, nor would I wait for the other parent to intervene.

It wouldn't be in their face though.

Of course we have no idea if this child was actually bitten or not.

Trifle, lots of people on this thread have justified shouting into a child's face. They've told the OP that she's unreasonable for being upset about it, or not expecting an adult to behave like that towards a child.

As for your question, the answer is right there in the OP: "The woman leans down and yells no don't do that just inched from ds face" (that's obviously a typo for inches from ds face).

OK we may find out in due course that the woman was 30 inches from the kids' face, in which case, bad behaviour but not terrible. But when people say "inches from a face" they usually mean not very many inches.

There's an interesting article here about personal space

Sorry i meant to respond to whatthefreakingwhatnow's point that no one has justified shouting in a child's face. People have done exactly that on this thread.

Well put it this way. I have a 3 year old nephew. Yes I know I'm not his mum, but. i couldn't love him anymore than if I were his mother, and I go bat shit. If someone screamed in his face. His mum, Dad, me, my dd don't even do that. There's no way we'd let some randomer do it. No matter what he'd done

And what would you do,if a child bit your beloved nephew on the face, Awwlook?

Are you 100% sure you would be able to react with perfect self control in those circumstances?

its not the shouting or the "telling off" that's the issue though, is it? It's the shouting in someone's face that is where it crosses a line.

It wouldn't be in their face though.

Given that in the course of this thread it has morphed from ',,inches ' away (so any distance up to a foot) to 'in his face' when the the thread wasn't going the op's way we can surmise the woman wasn't either.

Talking sternly to a child is one thing, STDG, but Screaming inches away from a child's face, is another thing entirely

If actual screaming in the face happened then obviously that was ott. But a raised voice to sop the biting is entirely appropriate mo. I'm sceptical as to whether screaming in the face actually happened though as the op expected the other mum to calmly speak to her when her dd was about to be bitten, has suggested the other mum may have made the whole thing up, has conducted a yelling match in front of her child and has in no post suggested there has been any conversation with her child to find out what actually happened or address the biting. There is so much unreasonable in there that I'm finding it hard to believe the screaming in the face actually happened. I think the mum raised her voice and told the child off which the op didn't like. And the son has learned from the interaction that if he bites someone mummy will yell at whoever tells him off rather than address the biting.

I am also sceptical. 'Inches from his face' could mean 3 inches or 3 feet. The woman moved closer to him presumably because she needed him to hear her and stop biting her child. I don't blame her for shouting and think it would have had to be real uncontrolled shouting to be inappropriate in this stimulation. "Stop that!" or similar doesn't sound like uncontrolled shouting to me.

*situation

Of course talking sternly to a child is very different to shouting in their face, Awlook - I have not denied that.

However, what I am asking you is this - are you really 100% sure that you would have the perfect self control necessary not to shout at a child who either had bitten, or was about to bite your beloved nephew?

Because I have three sons, all of whom I love deeply, and although I am generally a very well controlled and civilised person, I am not 100% sure I wouldn't shout at a child who had just bitten mine on the face!

In that situation, I would put defending my son ahead of the possibility that I might upset the child who had bitten them by shouting.

And screaming implies a completeloss of control or a deliberate attempt to intimidate rather than issuing a cogent if directly expressed instruction.

In reply to the OP's post to me last night:

Exhausted- personally I would have told the child to stop calmly I would have then asked the parent to step in I would not yell in a child's face.

Erm - you lost your temper with a woman who shouted at him, I find it hard to believe you'd stay calm if he was bitten.

As I said yesterday, few people would deliberately shout at a small child in public and risk starting a row if they didn't have grounds to think it was justified.

I think Squiggle put it perfectly this morning.