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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think Toby Young deserves scorn for this article?

510 replies

BowieFan · 25/10/2016 19:11

Apologies for linking to the Daily Mail, but I've used a service that denies them advertising revenue: <a class="break-all" href="https://anonym.to/?www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-3869182/Why-Lefties-misty-eyed-movie-romanticises-Benefits-Britain-says-TOBY-YOUNG.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">anonym.to/?www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-3869182/Why-Lefties-misty-eyed-movie-romanticises-Benefits-Britain-says-TOBY-YOUNG.html

Aside from the basic errors (it's 100minutes long, not nearly 3 hours), it's just an awful article. The fact that Toby Young thinks everyone claiming benefits is a smoking/gambling/drinking loudmouth is just offensive. I'm shocked - not that it was published - but that he thinks his opinion is the opinion of everyone.

I'd love to see him survive on benefits. I wonder if he'd be saying the same things then?

OP posts:
Dawndonnaagain · 26/10/2016 14:38

Oh dear, the Wilson/Thatcher fact isn't true

Dawndonnaagain · 26/10/2016 14:44

too. Apologies.

smallfox2002 · 26/10/2016 14:46

The Naze, would that be the spending policies which saw two surpluses ? Would that be the spending policies which repaired the damage done by the Conservative's failure to spend on infrastructure and public services? The Labour government that by 2007 had two budget surpluses and had managed the deficit so that it was at the same level as it had been in 1997 under the tories? Them?

But then you don't want to admit that the actual thing that fucked the country was the banking crisis.

PermenantLurker · 26/10/2016 14:59

Stop fucking

I don't think anyone doubt that there are some people who are true benefits scum screwing the system- but the cuts don't stop them, and they do target the vulnerable. They teeny proportion of public funds that go to those playing the benefit system is virtually nothing in comparison to the proportion that is taken up by the % of the rich that are scum & playing the system.

The money goes on tax breaks for the rich, to banks, corporate tax is slashed, Amazon et al let off without paying taxes whilst treating their staff like dirt, housing benefit transfers wealth from the poorest to the richest when capping priveted rents could save us all (expect the tory most friends who benefit from this). It goes on mps wage rises, & the independant company they pay to 'advise' on mps wages, it goes on mps £39 breakfast & expensive wines. It goes on trident, which doesn't makes sense at the best of times as it isn't enough to face off with any other country that owns neuclear weapons as they all own way more than our tiny country does. It goes on the royal fund, & yes of course they bring in more money but they don't then need the land subsidies & royal fund ontop as a birth right. The same week the access to work fund was capped/then cut (which enables people who are blind/deaf etc to access valuable employment where their contributions are valuable to all of us) the increased the inherentance threashold hugely- something like 90% of inhesitance tax is paid on unearned income in the form of property that has increased in value- why should anyone get away with not paying tax?

Between the coalition and the tories people with disabilities have been massively disproportionately targeted.

Pip introduced to cut dla by 20% despite dwp's own figures saying that dla had a fruad rate of only 0.4%.

Carers allowance is now taxable income which effects other benefits.

Esa cut, and huge proportion moved to work related group when unfit to do so.

Dsa funding cut.

Bed room tax unfairly targets people with disabilities who need the extra room for equipment or because their disabled child needs their own room or whose house is adapted or need ground floor so can't exchange. Social housing not being prioritised disadvantages those with disabilities.

Access to work fund capped then cut.

Cuts to in work benefits, ctc, cb all unfairly effect families living with disability - maybe a parent can only manage part time work because of their disabilities, or because of their child, or may be one patent has to give up work to become a carer & then looses cb because their partner earns just over the threshold? There's no choice in many of these circumstances so why should they loose out when they can't work more.

Direct payments/independant living funds transfered to councils to assess and allocate, but the total amount was cut also.

Funds to education for children with disabilities cut. Cuts to sw/nhs etc directly effect anyone with disabilities. No where near enough special school places, funding to specialist teachers cut. Respite foster carers funds cut. Family support worker funds cut. Training funds cut. Disability charity funds cut.

In 2014 it was leaked that the UN was looking at investigating the UK for being the first ever country for breaching the rIghts of the disabled. Because of the numbers of people who die whilst benefits were unfairly sanctioned. Disability rights UK launched a parallel investigation. The government did everything they could to stop the figures being released.

In what way do the richest deserve to escape austerity when the poorest are loosing everything? Not to mention that as disability benefits only make up 3% of benefits funds it saves the public pot nothing. And costs more with appeals etc when most are granted it on appeal.

Posters really need to stop talking about paying tax as if it's a choice, we pay tax because we have to, it becomes public funds not 'tax payers money'.

PermenantLurker · 26/10/2016 15:06

Thenaze

Our over inflated housing market that enables transfer of wealth from the poorest to private landlords via housing benefit was created by thatcher selling off council housing

As everyone knows

PermenantLurker · 26/10/2016 15:08

And even the IMF are on record as saying austerity is detrimentall within a recession and that uk government should increase spending by 2%. IMF couldn't exactly be described as left wing now could they?

BoinkAlongQuietly · 26/10/2016 15:24

Posters really need to stop talking about paying tax as if it's a choice, we pay tax because we have to, it becomes public funds not 'tax payers money'.

I agree with this entirely- and feel uncomfortable with being "thanked" for paying taxes, while I appreciate the sentiment, there really should never be a choice to pay or not to pay.

We also pay out of selfish motives, we want to live, as most people do, in a society with universal healthcare, where the elderly are cared for, where childhood poverty doesn't exist, where crime is low, where we don't live in extreme social segregation, where we have good infrastructure, good education, museums, the arts etc.

However, permanent it is a choice - we could very easily not pay any U.K. tax should we want to domicile elsewhere. Still, this doesn't mean that we are being charitable by giving the public purse what is theirs in the first place.

BoinkAlongQuietly · 26/10/2016 15:27

And a very good post Permanent - makes me despair so very much the cuts to the disabled. A violation of basic human rights indeed.

user1476900263 · 26/10/2016 15:27

Firstly i am in ESA support group and get PIP !

I watched 'I Daniel Blake' and came out wondering if it was a 96 minute Party Political Broadcast for the Labour party.

The film was full of whats the worse that could happen in every circumstance.

The assumption that Daniel would have been denied ESA needs to be questioned . The absurd point in the film where his young neighbours just happen to get a reference about 'Zero' hours contracts in (totally irrelevant to Daniel's situation, but hey brilliant for Corbynista's.

It is more likely that the security guard who stopped the young single mother would have been 'head of security' at a bar or night club and therefore the offer of help would have been bar work or waiting on.

The general assumption that 'non management' were wonderful and that anyone with any seniority was the 'devil' is complete 'SHIT' as well and plays in to Ken Loach's absurd ideas.

Dawndonnaagain · 26/10/2016 15:41

Interesting second post user.
I'm currently on ESA. I haven't yet had my assessment. It's unlikely to go well. I have been turned down for PiP. Not because I am well but because the woman who interviewed me ignored facts, lied about the tests and knew nothing about two of my conditions, despite claiming to have a related condition.
Ken Loach's fim is accurate.
I'm pleased you got lucky and seem to have your benefits with very little bother. I wish that were the case for many of us, it isn't.

BowieFan · 26/10/2016 15:43

user1476900263

The assumption of Daniel being refused ESA needs to be questioned?

Does it? I know of a man who had a heart attack during the assessment and he was refused ESA.

The absurd point in the film where his young neighbours just happen to get a reference about 'Zero' hours contracts in.

Most young people with no prospects are shunted onto zero hours contracts. It's not shoehorned in - it's showing that in some parts of the country, nearly everyone is on some kind of benefits due to being in a low paying job, sickness or a complete lack of jobs anywhere.

It is more likely that the security guard who stopped the young single mother would have been 'head of security' at a bar or night club and therefore the offer of help would have been bar work or waiting on.

Yes, that would have been more likely but the film is ultimately fiction. And the story of the young single mother is actually based on a real story, not that I'll go into details.

The general assumption that 'non management' were wonderful and that anyone with any seniority was the 'devil' is complete 'SHIT' as well and plays in to Ken Loach's absurd ideas.

Well, in my experience, it usually is the management that are shit. They are the ones who force sanction targets and force advisers to be cold and clinical with "clients".

Funny how you made an account just to bash the film, isn't it? Almost like the Daily Mail sent you to set up an account...

OP posts:
BowieFan · 26/10/2016 15:45

Dawndonnagain

An epileptic client of mine from the CAB is severely epileptic. The assessor said "well, just don't look at strobe lights then, simple" - he is not photosensitive, has never been photosensitive and that's the only thing his Neurologist is sure doesn't trigger them. He has about 4 seizures a day. Of course, if she'd have read his medical evidence she'd have known that.

OP posts:
FromTheTree · 26/10/2016 15:46

It looks like some more sensible posts further on ....

I thought the vicious name-calling on Toby Young were utterly despicable. He is sometimes a controversial journalist, like Rod Liddle and Julie Burchill, but they are writing how they see it. Thats called being grown up. Not everyone has to agree. But how can you even have a debate when this is the lowest level of language people are desperate to descend to. Often Mumsnet posters sneer at the Daily Mail, but I've yet to see the sheer viseral hatred on DM threads as I have here.

I think the posters who sit, keys-read, to jump immediately on a thread to release their anger and hatred, really need to look within first. Especially when they are trying to take the self-righteous moral highground at the same time. There is that saying about looking at the muck in your own eye before casting muck everywhere around you.

PermenantLurker · 26/10/2016 15:50

Boink I was referring more to hiro etc attitude

Ultimately the PAYE part of anyones wages isn't their money, never was, and while I apprivate there are a few net contributors around for most of us, including middle class higher rate tax payers like my family, we will take more out of the system than we put in- in monatery terms ofcourse, and talking about 'tax payers money' implies that some have greater rights to say where and how it's spent, which is never true and isn't helpful in these discussions. 'Tax payers money' is the type of language that alludes to contempt for the 'benefits scum' who are lazy & scamming 'our' hard earned money.

BoinkAlongQuietly · 26/10/2016 15:55

Ahhh, ok, sorry I misunderstood. Th and for the clarification. I agree entirely.

Dawndonnaagain · 26/10/2016 15:55

FromtheTree I'm sorry, I don't understand your post, are you quoting from elsewhere?

BoinkAlongQuietly · 26/10/2016 15:56

^thanks for the clarification

FromTheTree · 26/10/2016 16:09

Read the first couple of pages Dawn but honestly there's no point in interacting on these kinds of threads, with anybody. Its all passive-aggressive stuff. You know exactly what I meant unless you missed the first page of posts, the faux-innocence is just hatred in another form. I find it quite disturbing, the hatred against a journalist fgs.

FromTheTree · 26/10/2016 16:09

I truly think alot of people should get a life, than trolling around on MN

Dawndonnaagain · 26/10/2016 16:13

Oh, I see. No I didn't know what you meant, I have Asperger Syndrome, so it's often difficult to judge.
Are you Toby?

user1476900263 · 26/10/2016 16:17

I am not a Daily Mail poster , i am a real person !

However, my life has taken a downward path hence being on ESA !

At 25 i would not in my 'worst' nightmares have believed i would be on Benefits at 45 and likely to be for the rest of my life.

I therefore understand on previous posts where Dawn has stated that we are all just bad luck or bad decisions from ending up on benefits.

In may case the bad luck with being born with Autism . This which was managed with great effort from me and family , secondly bad business decisions taken by family members leaving me who at 25 looked like having a prosperous future being reliant on 'state handouts'.

The only one in the history of my family who is not a net 'Contributor' so a bit embarrassing really.

I know things can go wrong. However if by questioning a film that at every available opportunity shows only the worst possible circumstances considers me to be a DAILY MAIL POSTER .

Good God ...

DrudgeJedd · 26/10/2016 16:17

Don't think it's Toby Dawn, he might be a throbbing bell but he would never mix his metaphors.

Dawndonnaagain · 26/10/2016 16:19

Grin Drudge

Dawndonnaagain · 26/10/2016 16:22

User. As I said, you were lucky, but consider how dreadful the system must be for those of us who aren't as lucky. Consider how bad the system is when the government admit to sanctions targets, when people are dying because of bad decisions and consider how bad the system must be for a film maker to have gone to considerable expense to expose the abominable practices employed by a government that is supposed to be protecting those of us that are weak and vulnerable.
As I said, I am glad it went right for you, I really am, that's not sarcasm, but it's hell for the rest of us. You admitted you were worried about claiming because of the mythology surrounding claiming, but it's not mythology, for many of us it's fact and that doesn't get to be all over the news, social media etc if there's nothing to it.

shovetheholly · 26/10/2016 16:24

Toby Young deserves scorn and ridicule full stop! Grin

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