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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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'It might not have been rape, she might have had sex and regretted it afterwards'

1002 replies

BravoHopeful · 21/10/2016 10:29

This statement makes no sense. If you had consensual sex and the next day regretted it, why on earth would you go through the whole horrible experience of reporting it to the police and everything that follows? You would just move on and put it behind you.

It's always trotted out as a likely explanation in 'date rape' type cases. But it makes no sense whatsoever. AIBU?

OP posts:
LouisvilleLlama · 22/10/2016 20:15

Don't worry Virgin I'll reply to the mighty Pinky as I've no idea why you make what she said is so great and unchallengeable.

Pinky

Of course not everybody accused of rape will sufferif found not guilty, and just to put into perspective whilst i acknowledge it is a sexual based offence, it is not rape so has little bearing on wether or not a man accused/ prosecuted for rape is seen or treated in society.

However even if it had been a rape case a couple of examples or 100 or whatever examples which show how a minority of accused/prosecuted people it doesn't give a wholistic view and isn't representative of every case.

Just like how if a raped woman or a certain number seems unaffected by being raped doesn't mean people can say rape doesn't harm anyone.

Thing is with many of the crimes as a society we deem the worst such as rape and murder even if it seems black and white to one person or group there will be others which it won't, especially for those that concern some with a good reputation people simply don't consider it as an issue that the person wouldn't commit the crime so they carry on supporting them and trying to help, especially on some things when it's open to interpretation and others have had accidental similar experiences.

for example In your story it was in swimming changing rooms, which i find a nightmare, the few times I've used swimming pools not in gyms and tried to go into changing rooms I've had experiences where the locks don't work and I'm trying to dry myself or get dressed but also keep the door closed a d a few times to my horror it's crept a little open and I've jolted to close it thankfully with nobody seeing me, I could use those experiences to reason that could have been what happened a d it was a misunderstanding and as such due to no malice or intent the man in your story could be/ have been helped, as what If somebody had seen me when the door started opening with me getting twisted up on my jeans as my legs weren't 100% dry and they misinterpreted my lunge to close the door as some kind of aggressive half naked Lunge at them?

I'd like to think if that happened and I had been accused of flashing or whatever that people would stand by me, no doubt some would, but some would take the view that I would be a predator, these things aren't easy, but in general from what I have witnessed around me and is seemingly seen as commonly witnessed those accused of rape especially even if found guilty are affected badly, and the stigma stays.

Thefishewife · 22/10/2016 20:19

poster AVirginLitTheCandle Sat 22-Oct-16 20:11:42

That is the vibe I am getting from this thread

RufusTheSpartacusReindeer · 22/10/2016 20:23

Aaah so no one said it

You just think they are thinking it

Gotcha

RufusTheSpartacusReindeer · 22/10/2016 20:23

My post was to fish

AVirginLitTheCandle · 22/10/2016 20:33

That is the vibe I am getting from this thread

When did you first realise you could read minds?

AVirginLitTheCandle · 22/10/2016 20:40

Do people normally flash their genitals in a mixed sex changing room then?

I've only ever used leisure centres with single sex changing rooms and I, along with other women, have no problem being naked in front of each other or walking around in various stages of undress. Of course I've never been in the mens changing room but I would imagine it's the same in there.

However I just couldn't imagine stripping in a mixed sex changing room and tbh I can't imagine many other people doing so either. So I would think it was odd if someone decided to randomly flash their genitals in a mixed sex changing room. Surely you would go into a cubicle/toilet if you needed to undress to the point where your genitals would be on show?

Like I said however I have never used a mixed sex changing room so I have no clue what people do or what the etiquette is.

itsmine · 22/10/2016 20:53

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

RufusTheSpartacusReindeer · 22/10/2016 20:59

pink has linked to the article in the other thread its you probably haven't seen it yet

AVirginLitTheCandle · 22/10/2016 21:05

Pink's explanation she has just posted on the other thread makes it clearer mine.

Apparently there were single sex facilities in the leisure centre as well as the mixed sex family changing room.

He was on his own at the time so why not just use the men's changing room? Why did he decide to use the mixed sex family changing area when there were single sex facilities to use?

Of course he somehow manages to accidentally flash at a woman after he decides to use the mixed sex facilities rather than the mens facilities. Very odd.

PinkyOfPie · 22/10/2016 21:07

I'm going to C&P what I've said in the other thread just now for Louis and itsmine to show that this wasn't a case of the door opening by accident, and what the victim had to endure...

[[https://www.cumbria.police.uk/News/News-Articles/2015/November/Man-sentenced-for-indecent-exposure-at-Carlisle-swimming-pool-changing-room.aspx
the police press release]] mentions full details of the incident including the erection. It's clear that He absolutely did it on purpose.

And I think it is perfectly comparable. He may not have committed rape but I hope that you think flashing an erection at a woman and two children in a mixed but non-communal (cubicles only) changing room is a serious offence?

It's comparable because people on this thread insist even the mutter of an accusation leads to lifelong ostracisation in the local community despite no charges being brought. My point of posting this is to show that in some cases, even with a guilty verdict for a serious sex crime, people will bend over backwards to excuse the man's behaviour and completely demonise the victim.

Can I also point out that, although it doesn't state in the article (but I know this pool), the mixed changing area leads to the family pool only. There are single sex changing areas in that facility. Despite having no child or other person with him, the teacher chose to go into the family changing area. Why would you do that as a man on his own when there's single sex?

Answer: because you're a sex offender who wants a woman and her kids to look at your hard-on

In case you haven't read the misogynistic, minimising and victim blaming comments on the petition, here are a few I pulled from it about the victim - a woman who was subjected to this in front of her children and had the bravery to report probably read this about herself, so too right it is comparable to other victims being demonised:

Surely the woman must have been already looking at the cubicle door as if the door had opened twice in 'quick succession' she would not have reacted quickly enough to witness it.

This women is a vile, pathetic women who has created lies to ruin someone's life and career.
Ally is a married man, with a beautiful wife. - if you were to put his wife next to this stupid, accusing women, you'd soon realise there isn't a chance in hell, that he would flash at her, ruin his own life and put his career at risk.

All I can say is that, maybe this women has some very warped insecurities that need addressing.

The vile lady who has put him, his pregnant wife and his family through hell and back clearly doesn't see the seriousness of her accusations!

If the 'lady' in question was so concerned about ally's supposed actions I'm sure she wouldn't hang around for minutes doing her hair, that in itself says a lot

I'm signing because one woman feeling offended shouldn't equal the loss of a career.

.Surely she could have just looked away

AVirginLitTheCandle · 22/10/2016 21:09

The leisure centre I go to also has a mixed sex family changing area as well as single sex facilities.

I'm a woman and it wouldn't occur to me to use the family changing room rather than the ladies. The only time I would use the family one is if I had mixed gender children with me.

PinkyOfPie · 22/10/2016 21:19

In case anyone CBA reading the police press release, the victim was drying her children's hair, when she spotted the teacher in the mirror behind her staring at them all with an erection. He then went back into the cubicle, opened the door again with joggers on, stared, shut the door, then opened it a third time fully naked, again string at the victim.

Very peculiar way to get changed for swimming, no?

AVirginLitTheCandle · 22/10/2016 21:22

Very peculiar indeed...

DeleteOrDecay · 22/10/2016 21:35

The way people are falling over themselves to defend the man in that case is a demonstration of everything that is wrong with our societyAngry What sort of world have I brought my children into?

slenderisthenight · 22/10/2016 22:39

I understand that faffing about consent looks like unforgivable rape apology when the crimes against women are atrocious. I don't have an agenda to be forgiving towards rapists, not at all. I just genuinely think - know - that consent is usually simple and occasionally not.

Does anyone remember the thread last month by a woman who was thinking back on a university experience and wasn't sure if she had been raped?

I don't want to say much about the details because it was her thread and clearly difficult to talk about.

She had chosen to make sounds to imply she was enjoying the petting that preceded the sex. He took this to mean she had given non-verbal consent for penetration. She hadn't intended to indicate she wanted to take things further, just that she was enjoying what was happening. Even though she wasn't.

I don't see how that's simple. Unless there is some kind of universal agreement that verbal consent is a must, regardless of how much the person seems to be enjoying it.

And she didn't automatically know she hadn't been raped. She was still trying to work it out. How can it be always simple when even she wasn't sure if she'd given it and no one can quite agree about what he should have done, only what it would have been wise for him to do if there was any reason to doubt?

Certainly, it's not an example of the most painstaking attempt to get consent. But that doesn't make a rapist, especially when there is this refusal to spell out what the lower bar is in terms of getting consent. And no, I'm not saying that men should aim for a lower bar, but we should be able to define when someone hasn't sought consent adequately, for everyone's sake. Most of the time, it's easy.

Saying that consent is always easy assumes (among other things) that (a) women won't give the impression they're enjoying something that they're not and (b) there are never misunderstandings about whether 'I'm enjoying this right now' means 'I want to take things further' or 'I'm happy for things to continue at this level' and (c) people who are very drunk will always present as very drunk.

The feminist response seems to be ''Well, if there's any doubt, you should check verbally.' But again, that's brushing an 'ambiguous' case aside by putting forward the 'gold standard' for consent. Which is only reasonable if you're going to say seeking verbal consent is what should always happen. Perhaps more importantly, it assumes that everyone will see reason to doubt in the same set of circumstances - I simply don't think this is invariably the case. One man may feel that checking verbally is always necessary, another may genuinely see no reason for doubt (or further checks) if the person seems to be behaving enthusiastically (and monitoring enthusiasm is in itself is a subjective thing). And even if they did check verbally, who is to say the person isn't more drunk than they appear? If this is all so very simple and it's so very obvious, why can't we have some obvious, simple rules? Like 'if she couldn't drive you home, it's sexual assault'? I can understand why we might not choose to impose a rule but surely it would be theoretically easy to agree on some, if it's all really so simple?

The feminist response seems to be brushing away the 1% of cases in which this may happen by saying that 99% of the time consent is simple so the 1% of complicated cases are impossible. That's illogical. Likewise saying that no situation about which there was ambiguity would be reported as rape so this is not an issue - if threads are started saying 'Was this rape?' and many posters are genuinely not quite sure, it's clear that occasionally even the potential victim does not have clarity. If she did come to a decision after so much uncertainty, she might well follow it up and it's hard to see how her story would support the idea that everyone definitely always knows exactly what seeking and giving consent is supposed to look like. In a similar vein, saying that your DP finds it simple is useless. My DP thinks it's usually simple but ludicrous to suggest that no potentially confusing situation could occur. The fact that he thinks this proves nothing.

I would absolutely agree that women who say they've been raped usually have been. I wouldn't want to see the issues raised here making it harder to get a conviction and I can see how they could be exploited. But I can't pretend to go along with the idea that consent is always simple and if you think otherwise, you're trying to excuse rape.

butterfliesandzebras · 23/10/2016 00:15

growapair

Imagine that you and I are at my house having a cup of tea and a chat. On the table is a particularly nice pen that I own. In scenario A, after the tea you pick up my pen, put in your pocket and walk out with it.(you steal it). In scenario B, I give you the pen, then you pick it up, put it in your pocket and walk out with it.

The only difference between the two scenarios is my consent. If I consent the pen is a gift, if I don't, then taking the pen is stealing.

Now imagine how it would sound if people claimed that its really difficult to tell if someone is stealing, as theft isn't like other crimes - you know, because women like giving gifts sometimes, so receiving stuff that belongs to other people is not something that is in and of itself bad...

And then they complain about how they can't possibly be expected to make sure it is a gift and that they're not stealing because they'd have to ask stupidly formal questions like 'are you consenting for me to take this pen from you..' which they have never done.

Those people would sound pretty daft, wouldn't they? Because we successfully teach this stuff to small children. Everyone understands this. There are probably a million ways in which I could indicate I want to give a gift, and yet it's not confusing or full of grey areas for anyone.

My pen is mine, and if you take it without me explicitly giving it to you, that's theft.

A person's body is their own, and if you have sex with them without them explicitly agreeing to sex, that's rape.

Framing sex as something that men are responsible for concerns me

That's not what anyone saying. Everyone has the responsibility to make sure any person (no matter what gender) they are having sex with actually wants to.

38cody · 23/10/2016 01:03

Ok so the guy has to be sure she's consenting - I get that ... but he also has to ensure that she's in a fit state to consent? What if he's as drunk as she is and he isn't in a state to make that call?

Fantome · 23/10/2016 01:32

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Fantome · 23/10/2016 01:34

This is a women's forum and yet there are so many victim blamers and rape apologists. Those who are doing that, you are why my friend never reported her rape, you are why I never would. You are as bad as misogynists.

38cody · 23/10/2016 01:38

Helpful and articulate FANTOME thank you for your contribution.

Fantome · 23/10/2016 01:49

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Fantome · 23/10/2016 01:50

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Fantome · 23/10/2016 01:51

(I don't either, I'm lucky, but one of my closest friends has been in that position, never said no, never fought, and all you rape apologists are saying she wasn't raped. Vile)

Fantome · 23/10/2016 01:53

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Fantome · 23/10/2016 01:54

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