AIBU to think that if you commit an adult crime you shouldn't receive anonymity

[Ohbehave1]

After hearing that both of the children involved in the murder of a mother and daughter have been found guilty I think that they if they were adult enough murder someone, and then go and watch films and have sex after that they should be old enough to be named after.

Their crimes were particularly nasty, and as such they should live with the consequences for the rest of their lives. They certainly shouldn't be able to do a few years and then get out with anonymity and start their lives as if nothing ever happened.

ayeokthen, I'd never say any of those things, and I don't know any colleagues who would either. I know that someone who had done what you describe would never be considered to have "served their sentence", they would be on life long supervision.

I'm sorry about what happened to your friend

Thanks for replying ElizabethG81 I realise my first post was more combative than I meant it to be. I appreciate your response. He couldn't have been very closely supervised as he kept her in the house and garden for nearly 18 months before she was found. I have to be honest, finding out he'd already done a life sentence and been released was the hardest part to take in all of it.
Obviously my experience doesn't allow me to be impartial, but in your opinion is rehabilitation truly an option with most violent offenders? I don't mean mercy killings, or even particularly manslaughter, but the planned, cold blooded ones, is there any hope of rehabilitation?

cartwheelgirl I don't know why you feel as strongly as you do and i hope it isn't because you've suffered at the hands of a criminal but what I do know is that you are only upsetting yourself by holding such extreme anger and hatred. The people you hold these feelings for are unaffected by them. They don't suffer because you hate them and wish them a horrible life. Don't waste your energy. Channel it into something that will make your own life more pleasant.

I think we have to as a society have hope that children who have murdered someone can be rehabilitated. This is children we're talking about, not Peter Sutcliffe.

Maybe they can, maybe they can't. Time will tell.

ayeokthen, I misread your post and didn't realise the person had already had a life sentence. What happened to your friend sounds horrendous.

I think rehabilitation is possible with most offenders. "Possible" being an important distinction - the right work/treatment needs to be done, which isn't always easy in our criminal justice system. It really depends on what the issues are - mental illness, personality disorders - some things can be treated, some can't. There are some people in our prisons who I don't think should ever be released. There are some people who have been released into the community against the recommendations of reports that I have provided to the parole board. It's not a perfect system, but I still strongly believe that we have to try to rehabilitate, otherwise where does that leave us?

I just happen to think that their crime was so heinous that they should have to live with the consequences for the rest of their lives.
They will have to live with the consequences for the rest of their lives.
Naming them simply puts the families at risk and makes it impossible for them to ever be released.

Do you think it is right that they get the chance to lead a normal life?
It will never be normal, but there is no reason why they should have to spend the rest of their lives in prison. Something has gone very, very wrong in these children's lives for them to end up committing this crime. I would much rather see them as a contributing member of society in the future. It can be done. Mary Bell did it.

it is frustrating to have this derailed by people reducing it to "well why do you want to know, how does it affect you?". Some of us are interested in the bigger picture.
Their names are not part of the bigger picture though. If you can't even explain why you want to know, then there is no reason why you should have the information. There is nothing about having their names that can actually help you in any way and there is significant risk that it could do harm.

ElizabethG81 thank you for your response, I have to say I can see where you're coming from, and empathise with how frustrating it must be when your reports are not considered in decisions as well. Maybe one day I'll have moved on enough to see past vengeance and seek to forgive, I hope so, but until then I commend the work that you do, it must be tough going.

FFS MyWineTime.

I will say it once again: I DON'T want to know their names.

You've quoted back what I said and completely misrepresented it. How incredibly tedious of you.

It was horrendous, she was missing for 18 months and when she was found we couldn't believe what he'd done. To this day he's never told us the real truth, and continued to lie and cover up what happened. The fact that he was already on life licence when he took my beautiful, funny, loyal, scatty friend's life away was almost as unbearable as losing her in the first place. But as I read my posts back, I realise how angry I still am, all these years later, and how unhealthy that is. Thank you for responding to me, I really do appreciate it.

What do you think should happen then CartwheelGirl?

I think all the efforts should be on helping the victim and their families, on crime prevention and protecting the public, NOT on protecting the interests of the murderer (beyond the most basic human rights). And I second ayeokthen's question - do rehabilitation programs have proven high success rates? Murder essentially constitutes breaking rules on the most fundamental level - how can we ever hope that people capable of committing murder can reliably understand and follow the rules of the rehabilitation program?

So sorry aye this crime horrified me enough without being friends with the victims - always hold them dear , much love.

Just to say, they haven't been sentenced yet, the anonymity could be removed at that point.

moreslackthanslick thank you, my friend's case wasn't this one, I fear I've derailed the thread with my own agenda, which wasn't right. I just feel in general that too much emphasis is placed on the rights and needs of the perpetrator, when the reason that the victim has no voice or rights is because they were taken from them. The victims seem to get so lost in the scrum of a trial, sentence and "justice", when in reality it is they who should be considered first.

Ayeokthen It's OK to still feel like that. Still not knowing the truth about what happened is awful and I imagine prolongs the pain. Have you ever had any counselling to talk things through? It works for some, not for others, but might be worth looking into?

I haven't had counselling, I'm still in touch with her parents, particularly her dad, I think feeling their pain more than my own makes me angrier with HIM, because he's still in control. No matter what we do it's still about him. Which is what makes me so angry and sad when I see the perpetrators needs being pushed to the fore, because it's not them we should be concentrating on, it's the victims and the shattered families and friends left behind. I feel like justice failed my friend, and I don't know how to change it.

ElizabethG81 - cross posted - and I can see that you answered the question about rehabilitation already. Still, what's important is whether rehabilitation works in reality, within the constraints of the imperfect system, limited funding etc. Does it? Is it possible that we simply can't afford to do it? Is it fair to pour enormous amounts of effort and time into people who committed hedious crimes and (in some cases) never contributed to society, instead of preventing these crimes in the future and helping those who want to be helped and can be helped? Does rehabilitation help with crime prevention, or hinder it, sending messages to others that any crime can be forgiven, with time?

I've been hearing about the prison system in Norway recently. This will never happen here. This thread is proof of why but I thought I'd share these links for those questioning whether rehabilitation works.

Here

here

cartwheel what do you understand rehabilitation to be? Rehabilitation is specifically for crime prevention! The person is rehabilitated to a point where they won't re offend. That is its purpose.

There is not, and cannot be 100% certainty that any offender is rehabilitated to the point they will never reoffend. If the cost of that is one human life, is that cost too much? I think it is, but I'm obviously biased because of my own experience.

Alconleigh

You bring Brexit and racism and shit into this very very sad case?

Really? Seriously? Good God.

Fully agree OP

Oh of course aye there can never be 100% certainty that a person has been fully rehabilitated. I should have been clearer that I meant it was the aim of rehabiliation that the person gets to the point where they will not reoffend. No-one can ever say that someone will never reoffend.

And fwiw I agree with you that the justice system failed your friend. Her killer was not rehabilitated. Clearly.

CartwheelGirl, the statistics show that most murderers do not kill again. There's a much lower recidivism rate than for other crimes. Of course, the most notorious cases are serial killers, but they are very rare. Most murderers will not go on to do it again.

Regarding the conflict between the victim's rights and the focus that is put on the perpetrator, in my experience there is a lot of overlap. We work to rehabilitate offenders so that they don't re-offend, if this is successful then the public is protected and there are no new victims, or the victims of the original offence are not re-victimised.

The purpose of rehabilitation isn't to "cure" the offender so that they can be released to live happily ever after, it's to make sure that they don't commit further offences.

Thanks Jen, I know my friend is an extreme case, part of me wishes I could "be the bigger person" and see past it all, but I can't, not yet. I do think that for all but the most heinous of crimes (sex offences, offences against children and murder) rehabilitation is a fantastic idea, those articles you posted about the Norwegian system were very encouraging and positive. For a habitual thief, drug user who stole to fund an addiction, burglar, robber and other serious crimes the Norwegian model could serve as a hopeful way forward.