Drunk consent is still consent is a load of rubbish. ( Ched Even acquitted)

[EveOnline2016]

www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/ched-evans-rape-trial-defence-12017591

I am fuming at this, how many women now will not come forward because of this ruling.

Sorry if this has been done already.

Maggie

To those saying women shouldn't take any responsibility...

Do you live your life as though risk doesn't exist, just because you 'shouldn't have to' take precautions?

And if so is this just in the case of rape/sexual assault, or other risky criminal situations such as theft/fraud?

To answer that. Personally I do take certain precautions. However the time I was raped was by a boyfriend in a very long term relationship. I believe he did it because I wanted to leave him and was slipping out of his control.

The problem I have with telling women how they should behave, is it contributes to a myth that a certain type of woman will get raped. This is simply not true. Most women are raped by men they know and trust.

I also don't like women's bodies being compared to property and belongings.

Me being raped is not comparable to having my bag snatched or being burgled. All of which have happened to me but the devastation of being raped is far worse for the victim.

I have no problem with being told to lock y doors or not to leave my sat nav on display, but I ask you not to compare my body to these objects and possessions.

There's a culture of looking to blame women, even if not directly. We need the tide to turn and hold the rapist fully accountable.

Even if every woman stayed sober and covered up, rapists would still rape, end of story.

Kath
don't go off with men you don't know
Sadly, Kath, I think there are many people answering here, or who were raped or whose daughter or friend was raped by someone they did know. The majority of rapes are by someone a person knows, though in some cases they might have met them that night but thought they were friendly or one of a group of friends.

I think it is not safe to young girls especially to drink much at all, but that does mean any one has the right to have sex with someone who has been drinking and call it consent, or that makes them culpable for someone raping them.

I don't know, Maggie, it's your silly, unhelpful analogy, not mine. You tell me.

The point is, you can irritate your own daughters with your advice, that at some point they are very likely to ignore because that's what young people do, all you like. It's not your place to decide for other adult women how they should behave, especially according to your own prejudices. And being judgemental about this after a rape and implying that the victim bore any responsibility for their rape, is victim blaming.

I took absolutely fuck all responsibility for myself as a young woman

skimpy clothes, tick
getting paralytic, tick
going home with strange men, tick
getting into mini cabs, tick
you name it, I did it. According to the haters I probably deserve to have been gang raped 3 times over

But I don't think now (aged) 43 I deserved the shit I got. The ones I remember I was (a) at work (b) aged 7 and (c) asleep

That sexual abuse thread is so illuminating . I went to the gym, and I looked at all the lovely young women around me and though- some, if not most of you have been though this.

and as for the 12 year old getting fondled, the school girls getting cat called, the women that got raped by their husbands.....

when me wee boys start to get less wee, I know what I will teach them

Venus, and Lighthouse
I am not saying a vagina is the same as a handbag but I do think it can be useful, and valid to relate taking personal responsibility in one situation to taking personal responsiblity in the other.

There are parallels.

I will not do as you say, and stop comparing them. You've asked me that twice now. I believe I said it was up to me how I made my point just as it is up to you whether to agree with me or not.

It's a perfectly valid analogy IMHO so I'm going to continue to make it. It doesn't mean I am saying a vagina is only worth the same as a purse or any other such gubbins. I am saying that the taking of personal responsiblity to keep oneself safe applies in both scenarios.

Twist it however you will.

maggie for the life of me I can't follow what on earth you are talking about.

The whole message of this thread seems to be

Men will rape women, but because they shouldn't, women shouldn't have to cover up/not get drunk/not walk down a dark alleyway wearing a leather thong etc

Therefore

Don't take any precautions to make the chance of something bad happening to you less likely.

Have I got that right? I'm really struggling with the logic here....

Panda I'm talking about taking responsibility to make the chance of something bad less likely to happen, whether that's being mugged, defrauded, stolen from or raped.

I was told that I wasn't allowed to include rape in that by Venus because it offends her or something.

The problem with comparing women's bodies with possessions is that this is the whole problem with rape.
Men thinking that women's bodies are possessions they can have.

So saying we should defend our bodies as we defend our possessions is rather buying in to that culture.

Let's look at Saudi Arabia. No scope there for women to get drunk, dress receslinglybor indeed go anywhere by themselves. Applying this fuckwit theory, women there must be safer from rape than anywhere on the planet.
There's a problem there, isn't there? I imagine even Maggie will spot it, if she can stop bring censorious for three fucking seconds that is.

Yes there is a problem. I'm talking about making things less likely to happen. I'm not a fucking magician. I can't wave a wand and stop every single rapist, even the ones raping women in burqas in their own homes, can I?

Boundaries, I accept the cultural connotations but it doesn't stop it from being a valid analogy ('thing to compare to'), from a logical point of view.

People always get stuck on this one, becuase they have to admit that yes, they'd take precautions to stop their purse being nicked which would weaken their argument against why women can't choose to do that for their fanny, so they have to resort to the old 'don't compare a vagina with a handbag' line. Yawn.

Nope.
She don't get it.
Curtailment of female liberty does not make women safer. Respect for female autonomy does. That is why sexually conservative societies are not safe for women.
Or to phrase it in terms even you can understand, it is men, not women, who cause this problem and need to take responsibility here.

But how do you know Karlos? How do you know how many women, who took precautions for their own safety, didn't get raped on that particular occasion?
Of course you don't. That's the problem with reducing risk. If something doesn't happen, you don't know it didn't happen.

And as for 'it would have happened to someone else'. Well, maybe. Maybe not. Maybe the rapist didn't get the chance that time, and went home to jack off to porn instead.

No the message is that rapists cause rape. Only rapists can prevent rape by not raping.

Women cannot prevent rape.

I have two daughters and 4 nieces. Statistically, more than two of these young girls will be a victim of sexual assault at some point in their lives. That thought makes me physically ill. You know what makes feel more ill? Knowing that if they are unfortunate enough to cross paths with a rapist people will be asking what they could have done to prevent it!

This is exactly why I will not tell my daughters to mitigate their own behaviour to minimise the risk of men commiting a crime against them because it can never, ever, ever be their fault. I refuse to allow them to believe that they could have prevented it or take any of the blame or guilt for it.

Sex attacks are bad enough without women feeling they were responsible or have something to be ashamed about.

The simple point is, you can take all the precautions you like, but if a man decides to rape you he will, and there's nothing you can do about it, and he probably won't go to jail.

Saying you're going to take x, y, z precautions so that you might not get raped just reinforces the problem that some people think some women are to blame for their rape.

There are no precautions you can take.

Rapists are not comparable to thieves, women are not comparable to possessions,

In any way shape or form.

Jack off to porn

That very sentence just shows that you don't understand what rape is about.

Seeing as the men who need to take responsibility aren't very likely to, how about we let the people who are willing to take responsibility take some instead?

I'm not talking about educational initiatives like the 'don't be that guy' thing. That was actually very good at getting men to stop and think, and I really agree with it.

But the criminal rapist who doesn't give two shits about society or women, how do you propose we get him to take responsibility?

maggiethemagpie
I would give up if I were you.

Some people would rather take no precautions to protect themselves and when something horrible happens perhaps they will find comfort in the fact that they were doing exactly what they wanted and had drunk as much as they could.

But the criminal rapist who doesn't give two shits about society or women, how do you propose we get him to take responsibility?

1. All rapists are criminal. All. Of. Them.

Raping your wife is a crime. Raping someone who cannot say no is a crime. Raping someone who asks you for sex and then changes their mind is a crime. Rape is a crime.

2. By making rape and sexual assault a man's issue and not a womens issue. By refusing to accept that women bear any responsibility for the behaviour of men. By making it socially unacceptable to treat women as sexual commodities. By never comparing women to property.

I'm not interested in blaming women, just keeping them safe.

It's up to each individual to risk-assess each situation and decide how much risk to take on.

I'd never tell anyone (apart from perhaps my own daughter) whether to take a risk or not. It has to be a personal choice.

But I don't think you should come on here saying I/ my daughter can't take action to keep ourselves safe(r) because by doing so we're somehow accepting the blame for any rape that may occur. That's nuts.

Even Ched Evans Soo? According to the law, he's not.

According to the law there was not enough evidence to safely convict him of rape. That is not the same as saying he did not commit rape.