to be considering calling child services on my sister

[IceAuntie]

Hi. Just let me explain my reasoning and i'll let mumsnet decide. My sis, not exactly the maternal type, she only seems interested in her kids if they can get her noticed (in a good way). She has 3 dd, the eldest is 14(from PR), a 3 year old & a 6mnth baby. DDno.1 is basically a mother to DDno.2 as my sis fawns over DDno.3. She is 14! and instead of being a kid, getting ready for GCSE's etc., she is changing nappies (both younger sisters!), cleaning up toddler sick and comforting tears/screams. DDno.2 is totally out of control, she screams and punches to get what she wants and my sis just gives in (e.g.she has just started playgroup in nappies! because she doesn't like the toilet & my sis gave up trying). DDno.3 is a very peaceful child @ present but how long that last who knows. My sis is still on ML and spends her days doing what she wants and ignoring everything else, the house is a tip. The rest of the family has tried to help/advise but she won't have any of it (unless it's free babysitting so she can go out). I could go further but I think you get the point. Am I being too hasty/worried over nothing? or are my DN in real trouble? Please help me mumsnet!

YANBU, OP I think you should take on board the comments from people here who have been used as 'carers' by parents, and how this has affected them now as adults, they know more about how your dn is feeling than any one else on here. Your dsis sounds like a piece of work, frankly, and your poor dn is not being allowed to take care of her own future, by having to deal with her siblings. Good luck with whatever you decide to do.

Why aren't you helping?
A 6 month old baby should be fawned over.
Many 14 year olds are concentrating on other things than GCSEs.

As a school governor, with respinsibility for
safeguarding, I'd say this requires a safeguarding alert. If there's nothing in it, all will be fine.

Your poor niece. If parents can't look after their children, don't have any. You shouldn't depend on one child helping to have more.

I've seen enough cases where kids find this a burden and are scared oftelling their parents this. They suffer in silence, no matter how happy they might appear to be. They feel guilty for not helping out.

This is not a case for social services

It's a potential safeguarding case though.

Why do people feel it's the OPs responsibility to help out? Her sis had the third child and her DH wasn't interested, so presuming the OP works and may have her own family even, why should she deal with it.

I can't imagine reporting my sister for things such as this. It sounds completely chaotic and that she has a lot to deal with but I would try to help her, not make things more difficult.

You seem terribly judgmental - a child starting playgroup not toilet trained is not unusual. I too had a child that was terrified of using the toilet. We too didn't force it but using positive techniques, was completely trained by 3.5 years. It was no big deal.

I would have loved helping out with a younger sibling aged 13/14 too. As long as they are not the main carer, I would not report for this.

Have you tried helping her OP?

A lot of this sounds an overreaction, OP - do you have children yourself? Someone with a 6-month-old baby and a 3-year-old has a tough job on their hands. The 14-year-old may well see this as helping out her mum, and you haven't given enough detail for anyone to tell how much she is doing.

I would seriously consider your relationship with your sister before reporting her to social services. They have a lot of malicious reporting going on, and though they will follow it up your sister is likely to guess where it comes from. If she is struggling then she won't be likely to accept family help if she thinks you or other family members are behind a report. Perhaps you and your family could give her a bit of help yourselves first of all.

My sis is still on ML and spends her days doing what she wants and ignoring everything else

With a 3 year old and a 6 month old baby, I very much doubt this statement. Are the children properly fed. bathed, and kept in clean clothing? If so, then that's not true at all. Just keeping up to speed with that is an all-consuming and relentless daily responsibility.

Fuck the state of the house - biscuits ground into the sofa, dried up beans under the kitchen table, grimy handprints on the wall - that's all normal (ish). When you have toddlers you have to lower your hygiene standards. And that's a fact. I used to be up your arse houseproud,
until I had two children, and my firstborn with a SN syndrome .My second born (who has no SN) is still appalled at the mess her sister can make
in five minutes flat. So in my opinion, a messy untidy house is not a case for SS.

I don't think it's at all out of order for a 14 year old to change a baby's nappy to help out. And I don't think it's unusual for a 14 year old to comfort a toddler whilst Mum is otherwise engaged with a baby. It's what families do. On the other hand, it's quite possible that this 14 year old is being put upon beyond what is normal - but only the OP knows
which one of those scenarios is nearest the truth.
I'm quite prepared to be shot down, but I suspect OP has no children, and what I would suggest is that she rolls up her sleeves and offers a bit of hands on assistance. Because that's what families do as well.

If I'm wrong, and she has a genuine worry, and if the baby is 6 months old then OP has recourse to contact a Health Visitor. SS can be a real help in many desperate situations, but I think it should be only in the most worrying situations that they get involved. Their resources are severely limited, and we don't want to call them in to look at a messy house and a Mum temporarily overwhelmed by childcare when their time might be needed elsewhere by children who are receiving genuine abuse.

Only OP knows how bad this situation is.
Are the children abused? Or is Mum just isolated and overwhelmed with looking after a toddler and a baby without any help from anywhere?
Is it all just getting on top of her?

Be helpful and not judgemental. And keep talking to the 14 year old

Munstermonchgirl
agree with everything you said.
It's hilarious that on other threads if there's even an hint of neglect or abuse it's,
"report op", "better to be safe than sorry", "think of the kids etc" but as it's the sister, she's 'nasty' 'judgemental' 'a troublemaker' and 'should butt out'
Apparently the 14 y/o being a surrogate mother is normal and op should do her responsibility and help.
I'm not a fan of ss but People who have been in the dn place have posted on here.
I feel so sorry for that girl.
The sis may have problems, she maybe overwhelmed hopefully if she does she will get some help ( as clearly the bf isn't helping).

Here's the thing about reporting to child services. They're not anyone's attack dogs that just barge into families and steal children on your command. They have to do an investigation and only then will they take any action if they deem it appropriate.

If you think there's abuse then report it anonymously. It's up to the investigators to decide if there's something amiss. That's the point of a report. In the mean time I would try taking the 14 year old out for girl's day out or something to let her just relax and be a kid.

The sex offenders list aspect is very worrying. Report it for this reason mainly plus 14 year old being main career. It's ok for her to change the odd nappy, babysit sometimes, cook the odd meal, unload the dishwasher daily but not ok for her to be running the household.

Thing is a 3 year old with disinterested parents will prob be difficult and attention seeking, rather than an easy child who wants a half hour of play.

I've read the OP over and over and I don't understand optimist's comment about the sex offenders list.

But that's slightly off topic.

I'm really surprised at the general consensus being 'butt out'. The OP stated that she, and other family, have tried to help, yet people are asking 'why don't you help'. I've seen this situation first hand with a family member and SS did get involved and did see it as neglect. Neglect isn't differing standards of housekeeping, it's a failure to meet a child's basic needs.

As lovely as it is to think that families should stick together and not report a relative to SS, the truth is that it's not about the sister and her husband, it's about the child. If you imagine your niece in 10 years time asking you 'why did no one step in? ' it will give you your answer. If you could say with a clear conscience that you didn't think it was necessary, then don't report. If you know that you would feel ashamed at having turned a blind eye, then you need to contact SS.

Where is your DN's father?

The only real concern I have here is that the stepfather treats the 14 yo so badly and though you don't mention it, I presume her mother does not stand up for her.

I would contact her school to report the shouting and constant criticism to the safeguarding officer.

I would also do as much as I possibly could and then some to be involved in her life, by which I mean spend time with her, be kind to her, and listen to her.

The other option is to ring the DN's school and have a word with the HOY, say you appreciate they can't discuss DN with you but you feel she has become a young carer to her sisters and are not sure whether to contact SS. They may be able to advise.

It says in the op that the family has tried to support the sister. The poster has also said that the stepfather does not treat the 14 year old kindly. But of course the answer to the op s concerns is to take the 14 year old out to the cinema and to say the op is a terrible sister and she should butt out. So which should it be, butt out or help sister and be a part time foster carer for the 14 year old? I will freely admit that some of the things said to the op have made me very angry. What kind of a world are we bringing our daughters up in if we think this is good enough? The advice on here has been disgraceful. And I can't see the op coming back. Well done everyone.

I think there are grounds for concern but the way you are phrasing it on this thread makes it sound trivial and /or that you have a grudge.

Drop the complaints about perfectly normal things. Focus on the things that matter.

The language the poster is using and how abnormal she thinks a 3yo in nappies is implies she doesn't actually have much of an idea about what's normal with kids or with in the boundries of normality, so is probally just being a bit unfairly judgy alongside a pretty big dose of differing standards.

That makes me think she's widely inflating the things she's said and chances are there's a fair bit of spite behind the story. It's little to do with her being the sister

I would say that this warrants a visit from social services. The oldest DD should not be relied on to this extent.

That could well be true need but there is an14 year old in the midst of this that appears to be emotionally neglected. I don't have loads of experience with children but I have had children disclose things to me that are little ifyswim and that turn out to matter. I would not want to put the op off seeking advice whatever her relationship with her sister. That's just ignoring the needs of the 14 year old. Calling the op nasty and vindictive is not going to make her come back and follow through is it? We just don't know.

I'm not saying you called her nasty need, I'm just surmising what appears to be the general mood of the thread.

I think one option would be to call SS anonymously - most councils should have a phone number through which you can contact the child safeguarding team. There, you could describe everything you know, and ask for signposting. You would not be obliged to give the details of your sister in order to ask for details of resources that she could turn to. The NSPCC have a helpline you can call to talk things over and, similarity, you do not need to give details. It might be that more support for the mother in all of this could make the situation better, or at least, stop it from deteriorating. Sure Start/HV for example could offer support to your sister and her family.

In my own upbringing, the situation was dramatically better once my mother's PND was diagnosed and treated. Not a miracle cure but it did improve things.

to everyone who has struggled or is struggling.

Erinaceuos I think your advice is what I would do in the op situation.

I was that older child for a few years too but I ended up in that role because of illness in the family.

I had a lot more than this kid had to do but it was the making of me. I got really good at time management, teaching and caring. I enjoyed being helpful in a non-trivial way although the circumstances were stressful. I have a really good bond with my db and dsis but I think I will be forever known as the bossy one.

If she's just changing nappies and helping out here and there, cleaning up vomit while the mum checks the temp of the poorly child type of thing, cuddling a gumpy toddler, I don't think that is above the call of duty to be honest and she might enjoy the responsibility. You should ask her.

As for the horrors of a 3yo still in nappies, well I'd love to hear the call to ss.

You're right; it's not fair for a 14yo to be helping so much when she should be learning and enjoying what's left of her childhood, but reporting your DS to Social Services might be a bit drastic and could cause a family rift.

Could you have a conversation with your DS and suggest she may benefit from some support around routines, parenting, potty training etc from her nearest children's centre? If their outreach staff think it's necessary, they can then be the ones to refer to SS for any additional help that might be needed.

The 3yo will also be entitled to 15 hours per week free childcare (30 in some areas, in advance of that being rolled out nationally next September), which might lighten the load a bit.

I helped out with my siblings when I was teenager, I like to think it made me responsible it didn't really

I would imagine a 14 yr old should be taking on helping around house. Obviously there are limits.

Your life must be very busy OP that you have nothing you can offer to help. I would be doing all I could before I would be reporting to social services.

Agree with pp what is "fawning" over a baby? And what is wrong with family "free babysitting"?

Maybe she has postnatal depression or just fed up with the hard work of a 3 year old and a baby.

3 year olds can be very hard work. If her parenting resulted in a helpful 14 yr old ?maybe she just needs support, not being told she is doing it wrong. Also butt out about the potty training unless she asks you for advice.