to be considering calling child services on my sister

[IceAuntie]

Hi. Just let me explain my reasoning and i'll let mumsnet decide. My sis, not exactly the maternal type, she only seems interested in her kids if they can get her noticed (in a good way). She has 3 dd, the eldest is 14(from PR), a 3 year old & a 6mnth baby. DDno.1 is basically a mother to DDno.2 as my sis fawns over DDno.3. She is 14! and instead of being a kid, getting ready for GCSE's etc., she is changing nappies (both younger sisters!), cleaning up toddler sick and comforting tears/screams. DDno.2 is totally out of control, she screams and punches to get what she wants and my sis just gives in (e.g.she has just started playgroup in nappies! because she doesn't like the toilet & my sis gave up trying). DDno.3 is a very peaceful child @ present but how long that last who knows. My sis is still on ML and spends her days doing what she wants and ignoring everything else, the house is a tip. The rest of the family has tried to help/advise but she won't have any of it (unless it's free babysitting so she can go out). I could go further but I think you get the point. Am I being too hasty/worried over nothing? or are my DN in real trouble? Please help me mumsnet!

I would call them. A 14 year old should not be cleaning up the vomit of her younger siblings.

I feel sorry for the oldest daughter. Not really wanted by step-dad by the sounds of it, and now taking care of a toddler instead of working on her schooling. This could muck up her future.

Your sister clearly needs help of some kind, She might be depressed, yes, but doing nothing won't help the girls. If she's not open to more support and letting her oldest focus on school more, yes, I would call social services or let oldest daughter's school know what's going on. They might have some sway with mum if they realize she's actively interfering with DD's schooling.

Just occurred to me - are you only auntie to eldest? I know you said sis but I wonder if you actually mean ex sis-in-law?

SS aren't this big evil thing, like some of you seem to be thinking. They offer support and help, which the sister seems to need, and the kids certainly do. Calling social services because you're concerned about the welfare of children, physical and emotional, is not an evil thing to do.

I'm shocked by a lot of posts on here.
The mum as well as your dn sound like could use some support.
This is not normal and SS may just be the wake up call that is needed.

(e.g.she has just started playgroup in nappies! because she doesn't like the toilet & my sis gave up trying)

this is what she is supposed to do. tons of dc start nursery and pre school in nappies. there is no point forcing your dc if they are not ready to train. you can store up problems for later.

many 3 year olds also lash out. she sounds like she needs more support. do you take the toddler out to help her? do you or the family offer help? its amzing how things can spiral out of control with a baby in the house. maybe some help with cleaning, baby sitting to help her?

I agree with beardeddragon take the older girl out for a while to give her a break, I don't think it's normal.

It's not what I'd call normal and I was a single mum to 4DC and one of my DC was disabled but I never made my older children look after the youngest one and I had no outside support at all!

OP what your describing is not normal!You poor oldest DN needs time to be a child she shouldn't be being made to be responsible for 2 younger children and your Sisters husband sounds just as bad as your sister.

If your sister won't except help from family and friends and her husband won't do anything to make anything better then I'd have a word with your Nieces school,the NSPCC are also really good,you don't have to give your name or what your relationship is to the children or they're parents to the school or the NSPCC.

i had a younger sibling or 2 and at 14, i was quite capable of changing a few nappies and helping out. on the surface, i dn't see anything awful in whats going on, but it very much depends how much the older child is doing.

I think it is a ridiculous idea to call SS. The kids don't appear to be in any danger. Any intervention from them could be emotionally damaging for the DD's not to mention the fact that the school and any other institutions they are involved would be contacted.
Have stern words with your sis and ask if you can help in any practical way ;could have the eldest over a couple of nights a week for tea and homework support. Perhaps having DN over for the weekend might make her buck up her ideas?
Does your sis attend a parent and toddler group? Sure Start are great and have family support workers .

It certainly sounds like they could do with some support, but this is not just about your sister, it's about her DP too, he is failing these children as well.

If you think SS can help then yes, I'd do it. Certainly the 14 year old has no business doing the amount of childcare she seems to be doing.

SS will not commence proceedings for this sort of thing but they might want to regard the children as 'children in need'. That puts a gentle spotlight on the parents - a watching brief if you like - to ensure that everything is OK after all. If there IS something to worry about the team around the children - health visitor, GP, schools, nursery etc - will all liaise to try to bring about improvements for them. Only if that fails will they go to law.
This IS neglect, whatever some PPs may say, and to say you shouldn't intervene just because she is family is exactly the sort of thinking that leads to children being seriously harmed. BUT, there are other options before SS, some of which have been suggested but the one I'd really urge you to try is HomeStart (which is only in parts of the country). If there's one local to her, call them and see what they can offer.
Good luck and we'll done for worrying about those children.

Are they neglected in any way? And I don't mean not potty training and paying attention to a baby. The 14 year old shouldn't be a surrogate mother and this isn't fair on her at all. If the house is that bad there could be a neglect issue.

This isn't normal btw and I can't believe a poster said it was.

Without seeing it for myself, it's hard to know what to advise but if you think they are in danger of being neglected etc, then report. SS can decide if it's worth following up. They may not do anything though. My cousin was reported (rightly so) and SS went to see her and decided nothing needed sorting. They are wrong and I think there is a level of neglect.

The thing in your post that you appear to be placing more emphasis on like the 3 year old in nappies are not things that would concern me and that can dilute how much importance I would place on your assertion as to the state of the house.
Some 3 year olds are quite agressive, how often is the kid being sick? I'm not sure I would bat an eyelid at a 14yo helping out by cleaning up an occasional bit of sick (I have a 3yo who is probally sick less than twice in 6 months) so unless the 3yo has some type of illness that causes excessive sickness it again makes it sound like you just don't like her very much and are being unkind.and are perhaps over egging the pudding a fair bit.

I was that older child, please step in to help (yourself or SS)

I was utterly fucking miserable and still now wonder why no one stepped in to help us

Instead of calling society services why don't you help ou with the kids. Show her you really care instead of judging her. Take the kids out sometime. Nobody is perfect and we all need help sometimes. It is overwhelming bringing up small children.

Try to help practically instead of telling her she is no good . After you have done all you can to help and things are no better then call social services.

it's hard to make a judgement on it being neglect or not because a huge amount of things that people call neglect are nothing more than differing standards.

Nothing wrong with older kids helping out but there is something wrong with them being surrogate parents, some people think they shouldn't do anything that could be construed as helping out but others don't it really does depend on exactly where on the scale what she's doing is and St often needs someone who does not have the family connections and history with each other to look at it

Social services won't do anything I was a foster carer for 7 years

They will think they little ones are being kept safe by the 14 year old

You would be surprised how much you can actually mistreat your children before action is taken and the older the child is the more neglect they are allowed injour before anything happens

If you that worried think about taking your niece in remove the safety net she will either start looking after the younger ones or fail and then ss will step in

Or give her more support yourself

Those my dear are your options

My 16 year old has emptied potties and helped get her younger sibling's to sleep from time to time she also has regular chores and she got a/b gcses she would have got a* but we had social services involved (because of my ex) and they spent a year looking for issues insisting on pulling her out of lessons etc they did more damage than anything

Yes a good social worker is helpful but they are not all good you could make her life worse

What you've described sounds normal!

Is this normal? I believe a safeguarding alert would say otherwise.

instead of being a kid, getting ready for GCSE's etc., she is changing nappies (both younger sisters!), cleaning up toddler sick and comforting tears/screams.

DDno.1 is basically a mother to DDno.2

iused to love taking care of my younger sib at 14.Butt out!

Anyone who has ever had a six-month old baby and a toddler will know that it's normal for the house to be a tip, it's normal to still be in nappies at 3, and to be honest it's also pretty normal for a 14 year old to be helping out with the little ones and changing some nappies (although it's also normal for a 14 year old to want to do nothing of the sort!).

If you think the eldest needs some TLC, attention, or time off, please be a great aunt and give it to her by inviting her out to do something nice! Or help out your sister, or encourage her DH to pull his weight a little more. Don't be an arse and call social services. Good grief.

Hi op, can you explain what you mean by your DSis "fawning" over the baby and only liking the kids if they can get her noticed "in a good way"?
Re the house being a tip, do other people think that and is it dirty or just messy?
Also, do you have DCs yourself? It's not that your judgement isn't relevant if you don't but I'm thinking you might be expecting too much of the 3yr old, for example.
How do you think your DSis should be spending her ML?

This is NOT normal and a 14 year should not be expected to be effectively parenting younger children with an able bodied parent! Stop normalising this selfish behaviour. This is abuse of at the very least the oldest child. And no it's not up to the sister to pick up the slack, as then the mother will just continue being fecklessly self-centred. Social services aren't just evil child snatchers but generally try to provide some support. Your oldest niece deserves to have a childhood. If you are concerned, call them.

Have you told your sister or her partner that you think there home set up is so bad that social services might need to intervene? And if so, what did they say? If you haven't - then why not?