to not want this boy in my home again?

[endlesslynamechanging]

This has been festering since the weekend so I have decided to seek the gentle wisdom of AIBU. Sorry it's a bit long, didn't want to drip-feed.

DS1 (16) wanted to bring his latest mate around, and I refused to allow it. DS1 was furious and thinks I am being petty. Perhaps I am, but here is my reason. This other boy used to live next door to us, only moved away less than a year ago, but while here he was particularly horrible to DS2. The boys all played together, but mainly this child and DS2, however if ever the boy was in trouble with his mother DS2 got the blame. The mother was the type who believed her angel could do no wrong, and never for a moment doubted his version of events. Her response was to very obviously treat DS2 nastily, such as excluding him from activities that DS1 and all the other neighbourhood children were invited to, calling her DC in whenever DS2 went out to play with them, and generally made it very clear she disliked him.

When I said I wouldn't discipline him for anything I did not believe he had done, she reported him to the school, for bullying her child at home. This led to the son taunting DS2 at school, e.g. taking things from his bag or hiding his shoes at gym, and saying "you can't touch me, or my mum will phone the school again!". DS1 was quite torn as the boy was nice to him but couldn't bear him being horrid to DS2. The boy knew exactly what buttons to press to get DS2 wound up (he suffers from anxiety) then complained of bullying if DS2 retaliated in any way, knowing his mother would back him all the way. I tried to speak to the mother about this but she refused to acknowledge her DS might be in any way to blame for anything that happened.

When the school said there was no action to take, the mother then called an anti-bullying helpline and gave them DS2's name and address because he was stressing them so much. She told me she had done this because whenever her own two DC were fighting and she intervened, they said it was because they were scared of DS2, even though at this stage they hardly saw each other any more. When I asked for details about what DS2 had done that she classed as bullying, she was very vague and just said they were worried about what he might to. She implied they weren't safe from him even though he had never actually done anything.

We eventually never spoke for about five years, (horrible in a small close-knit community setting) and then they moved away and it was bliss beyond belief not to have them anywhere near me again.

Only now, DS1 and this boy have become really friendly again, and all the memories of what a little shit he had been to DS2 came flooding back, and how the mother had behaved about it all. Neither DS1 nor DS2 know the half of what was said between the adults, or the real truth of why I fell out with the mother and eventually the whole family, and I don't want to have to justify myself to my son. A bit of a row ensued, and when DS1 kept asking why he couldn't come, I got really bad-tempered and reminded him of what he did to DS2, but DS1 just says that was years ago, he's not like that now. But DS2 still hates him, and I can't forget how he and the mother treated him. I was so glad to have them out of my life and even though the boy is older now he was still a complete shit. I just don't want him in my home ever again. I get upset and angry again just thinking about how DS2 was treated (and me, by association).

This won't go away, as he and DS1 are hanging around together quite a lot. I would never dictate DS1's friendships, however AIBU to think DS1 can see him anywhere else, just not in my house? Or do I need to get over myself?

How did you cope with seeing your DD being friends with her bully? It would have made me so angry!

DS1 is a popular guy and seems to be liked by everyone. He belongs to a few different friend groups, but has no particular best mate. This other boy was initially in one group but has now joined one of the other groups too. There was a mass sleepover a couple of weeks ago, and DS2 was invited but declined at the last minute. I afterwards found out the other boy had been there (a first), but DS2 denied that was his reason for not going.

In your shoes I would:

Tell son the whole unvarnished truth in age appropriate (not too long-winded) language.

He is 16 and if he chooses to be friends with this boy that is his business but no way is that child every coming in my house.

We get many chances to make friends in this life, they come and they go, but siblings are special. Whether by blood or adoption or fostering or whatever. One day with our siblings we may witness the arrival of our own niece or nephew, we may stand next to them at their wedding, we may receive devastating news about the health of a parent, and we may plan that parent's funeral (sorry had to do some of those things this year with my sister).

NO WAY should we ever put the feelings or needs of a bullying neighbour over the feelings and needs of our sibling.

Plus it may not have occurred to your son but this boys choice of him as a friend, and the bullying of the brother, playing one off against each other etc, may all be part of the fun for this boy. If things were different it might have been ds1 being bullied and ds2 being befriended.

Your son is 16, old enough to make sensible decisions for himself. Tell him the truth but do not back down on the home front. Your son is very foolish if he falls for this nasty boy's friendship again.

Sorry

Interesting how agreed everyone on this thread is. I'm going to go against the grain though. You say this boy hasn't been in the picture for 5 years or so, so isn't it possible that DS1 is right and that he's changed? If he's in his mid-teens now, he's possibly completely different and more mature than he was as a primary kid. I'm a bit tbh at how little faith you have in DS1 to make good choices about who he wants to hang out with, and in your OP he comes across as rather more tolerant than you do. I do appreciate though, from experience, how hard it is to look objectively at kids who have bullied your own. Presumably, the friend's mum isn't going to be sticking her oar in now the kids are older (agree she sounds like trouble), so personally I would be tempted to have the friend round to your place so you can see for yourself whether he's changed and can behave nicely around DS2. If you insist DS1 meets him elsewhere, you'll never know, will you. Zero tolerance if he bullies DS2, though, which DS1 needs to understand and accept. And I would explain in advance to DS2 that this is an experiment in being tolerant and giving the benefit of the doubt, so that he knows you've got his back.

Sorry, just reread the OP and realised they only moved away ~1 year ago, although you hadn't had any dealings with them for ~5 years. So maybe you have a more accurate picture of how he is now than I imagined. Or maybe not. I would still give him one chance though.

MrsLupo if someone had attacked you and then came out of jail and said they had changed, would you have them round your house, just to see if they really had changed?

Bullying leaves scars, and the one place that people should feel safe is in their own home. If the Op's ds2 doesn't feel safe, but has to allow this boy into his home, then what does that say about looking out for people's needs. The friend doesn't need to come to the OP's house but the OP's ds2 needs to feel safe there.

Plus, I am not sure one could assume the mum would not get involved still. Today's 16 year olds are driven everywhere, and looked out for (probably rightly so) to a massive extent. I can't see you could know she would not somehow stick her oar in.

OP you YANBU. i wouldn't want this lad in my home either. your poor DS 2

i could be wrong but it sounds as though DS1 is easily led and perhaps not one to want to rock the boat. he needs to be taught that standing up for those who are being mistreated is more important than his reluctance to say anything to stop it happening. or maybe he really doesn't see what his "friend" is doing is painful for DS2?

Now your son is 16 I would tell him exactly what went on. If he still wants to meet up fine but there is no way on gods earth is any member of that family being allowed back into yours or DS2s lives

I think this is very difficult and not as clear cut as some posters are implying. For whatever reason, your DS1 is friends with this boy. How you feel about the boy's mother shouldn't impact on this. It's irrelevant.
So, really the point is how does your DS2 feel about the boy now? Your OP is a lot about your angst (and I understand that) but your DS1 is aware of everything that happened (except between the parents) and he still wants to be friends with this boy. Either he has no regard for DS2's feelings or the other boy has changed or DS1 thinks the bullying issue wasn't as clear cut as you do.
I think you have to take your feelings out of this and see how DS2 feels about it. I'm not sure if you can do that without leading him because you have such strong feelings
Telling DS1 about your arguments with the other mum will just make him feel that you are ganging up on him to win your argument. I wouldn't want to make this friend even more desirable by being strongly against him. You can help DS2 to decide his own boundaries and support DS1 and DS2 to talk about this boy and why they both view him so differently.

Very good advice Couch.

Good advice Couch except it is not just about an opinion. it is about facts and what has happened. the other mum did not just upset or bad mouth the OP, she behaved appallingly to the OP's child. Not in a seperate unconnected way to her son but in cahoots (for want of a better word) with her son.

So it looks like good advice couch but I would say in this instance the advice is not good! Because it ignores relevant facts. And requires the OP to go against her desire to protect her son; in order to do, what, facilitate a friendship between one son and the other son's former bully!

The only person served by this is the former bully!

Which one is the victim?

erm, the one who had stones thrown at him was the victim.

I've only just returned to look at this thread, and am not afraid to go against the grain completely.

The best and most clear cut example you can come up with of your son being an innocent victim is him throwing stones at another child, after a verbal disagreement you actually didn't witness, and can't know much about.

But its is the sheer audacity of you putting that down in an open forum, and expecting people to side with you, and agree that your son was "made" to commit this act of aggression, that takes my breathe away. Your view seems so skewed that you genuinely do seem to believe that your son was the victim.

I have some sympathy with DS1. Why should he automatically be expected to side with someone just because they share some DNA. Maybe he thinks his little brother was in the wrong. Maybe he has the strength of character to make these judgments for himself. Maybe he has actually worked out that there is something immoral about the blind, unthinking loyalty that seems to be advocated by so many on this thread.

As I said, I have no qualms at all in going against the grain. i don't care how many pp say the opposite, I know right from wrong.

I also stand by my previous assessment that these two families should have no contact. (Or the two elder boys, if they do, should keep it quiet and away from you)

I now fully expect to be called a snob as well

Yanbu, and surely your son is old enough to understand why this is so!??

I find it quite sad that your DS1 would want him to go to yours after what he put you and your DS2 through. Speaking as a protective sibling, anyone who has bullied/upset my family, I have no time for. I didn't at 16, and I wouldn't now.

YANBU btw, but I think the issue lies to some extent with DS1 and why he thinks this would be acceptable ...

Op ignore the poster on victim blaming. Victim blaming is a really ignorant phrase, very few situations are that simple, lots of children will take only so much then end up exploding. They are the true victim.

However both my dc have ended good friends with their bullies, these children did mature and my dc are more foregiving than i am. However in their cases the mums were nice people and didnt behave like the mum in your case did. I really dont blame you for banning this boy unless there was a real heartfelt apology to your DS2

I don't think you should make this about DS2 at all. Probably if you do that it will just make it DS2's fault in DS1's eyes, and that won't help their relationship.

The fact is OP that you don't like this other boy because of how he (and his mother) acted and you don't want him in your house because of it. I think that is fair enough and would probably feel exactly the same way.

Longlost
The one who had the stones thrown at him was not the victim.

bruffin, yes he was absolutely, morally and legally

You make fun of a colleagues new shoes tomorrow, and get stones thrown at you. I think you'd be calling on the protection of the law pretty promptly.

Absolutely no justification for it what so ever.

Any mother who thinks there is, is likely to be spending a significant part of her life visiting her offspring in prison.

And this is only one example we have of DS2's behaviour, and it is the one his mother first brings to mind as an example of his victimhood!

Morally he is not. I have seen bullies get sway with bullying because they do know just how to push buttons, then play the victim when the true victim finally retaliates.
You obviously dont know right from wrong as verbal and emotional bully is in many ways worse than physical.

Longlost has obviously never been bullied

The boy is not the victim, he's just a very manipulative bully. I've been bullied for years and I know some have them bully, just to get the reaction so they can claim to be a victim.

Longlost10 But he didn't have stones thrown at him, he had them thrown at his skateboard - and before you say that that's just semantics, targeting an inanimate object is very different to targeting a person.

Of course OP's son isn't showing bullying tendencies by doing that - I'm impressed that he didn't respond in a worse manner, considering the taunting and his age.

And why do you think people are going to call you a snob? I see nothing in your posts to qualify such a comment.