to be pissed off that the town hall will no longer let me run my club, due to us not accepting girls?

[Waterlipe]

Basically, my 2 sons wanted to join Beavers, there were no places (we have DS2 down on the waiting list, we have since birth, he's now 4, so we'll see if he gets in, but it's unlikely. DS2 is 9, so would be in Cubs, but still haven't got a place yet, has been on the lists for a few years. There are places in Brownies, etc. :( which is frustrating, as the boys would enjoy that too, but oh well, so I set up a crafts club for boys. It used to run at the village hall (it was all official, don't worry) and it was quite popular, the village school isn't great and doesn't offer many extra-curricular activities, so the club that walks the children home (can't think of the company!) often brought the children to me (obviously this was all sorted out with parents) and they did crafts! (btw there was an other after school club in the church rooms (which is just opposite, so there was places for girls to go after school if their parents needed). We had around 3 boys on the first week, but it got up to 25, which we were very happy with! It was just so nice to see them so eager to learn how to do these activities. Anyone, of course, one mum moans that she wants her son and daughter to be in the same place, to which we said that she should put her son in the after school club at the church, oh no, she preferred our activities (it was me and a couple of my friends who ran it)... She threatened to go to the police for sexism, etc.

In the end she came one day and told us how she has written to the council, etc.

We have received a letter (I'll actually attach it to this thread in the morning, I'm just too lazy to get out of bed) about how we can no longer use it unless our rules are changed, but yet this was fine when we first opened it. Maybe no one can help until I attach the letter, which is fair enough. I'll do it when I wake up

It's not about seeing girls as people - they already do that at school!

What? Is equality for lessons only now?

You'd seriously tell your kid that it's fine to drop an activity they enjoy because it now includes girls?

The world is a very sexist place but I'm surprised women are okay with this.

I havent read all the posts but could you not give the club a name that gives boys ownership but in reality not actively exclude girls if they wanted to join? Something along the lines of (but obviously better than) "crafty boys" but then if any mums complained just say of course their daughter can join - it is aimed at boys but doesnt exclude girls?

50p per session must go nowhere near to covering your costs. Have you thought about applying for lottery funding?

strangeday check out LetToysBeToys on Twitter. They challenge every incidence of this and get major retailers to stop the badging of toys as gendered.

Oops so sorry someone suggested literally the same thing with the same name the page before! Maybe crafty boys is not so bad!

Oh to the person saying you can't see any boys wanting to do loom bands as 'girly', etc. so don't see what we do. That's the whole point of the club! They are no longer seen as 'girly' things to do, so do do it and enjoy it! They love all the activities we present to them and don't even hesitate to give it a go

Please try and push back against this OP.

My ds (9) would love a club like this. He does Cubs (where there are girls) but he loves crafty stuff and although he does it at home a bit, he'd love to have a go with his boy mates.

My ds hates football and rugby and although he's popular at school he struggles with the very traditionally boysy side of school. He gave up choir this year as one by one all the boys disappeared and he didn't want to be the only boy singing as he would be teased. I'm going to encourage him to rejoin but it'll be hard.

Boys wouldn't drop out specifically because there are 'scary girls' there. But over time, they might feel less happy there, not enjoy it as much, not feel as successful if several experienced crafty girls started, etc etc - a gradual thing over time, that just leads to them not enjoying it as much. And of course parents will let them drop for that reason - without realising that it might have been because they just aren't as comfortable anymore.

I'd have liked to go to a girls only session on cycle maintenance or coding or something, where the boys who just had experience through other things they'd already done were somewhat better - not necessarily loads better (or they'd have been in a different class) - but just enough that they felt more able to risk answering things, trying stuff out, etc., and as a result, girls felt awkward and left the groups or didn't join in the first place.

It's subtle, but I think there is a level of discomfort that boys feel in front of girls and vice versa, when trying out activities that were stereotypically one or the other. Even in things like school cookery lessons, where girls were a bit more experienced with baking, for example, the boys in our class got teased a bit for not knowing basic things, even though none of us knew loads about the subject - there was still just a bit of a discrepancy, and as a result, it perpetuated the idea that baking wasn't really for boys. I'm sure it's changing now, but slowly, and I think clubs like this help. It's one thing to say that they shouldn't be necessary, that girls and boys should just be encouraged to do the same clubs and that's it, because that isn't what is happening in the real world. No, a boy shouldn't feel embarrassed about going to sewing club and teachers should crack down on anyone teasing him - but chances are, boys won't get to that stage. They'll just not go in the first place, not make a big deal of it, but just 'not interested', which then perpetuates stereotypes.

You have to wonder how many of the girls in beavers asked to go and how many were signed up by mothers making a point.....

What sort of a point would they be making? I am the mother of a daughter in Beavers. At 6, DD wasn't going to be in any position to make an informed decision about whether she would prefer Rainbows or Beavers and I was intending to let her try both and see which she preferred. Unfortunately, Rainbows was on a night we couldn't manage logistically, so Beavers it was. Lots of her friends are Rainbows though and at all different groups. Slowly, they are all starting to join our Beaver group. I think it is just because every child, boy or girl, seems to love Beavers. They camp (which Rainbows don't), albeit with parents in tow, they do sleepovers in the winter (which some Rainbows do, but none of the ones near us it would seem). They play games and go on hikes as well as doing cookery, crafty activities and loads of badges. It is the one extra-curricular activity DD has never been reluctant to attend.

I think it would be a real shame if Beavers stopped taking girls or at least Rainbows would need to seriously up its game and stop just doing endless glittery crafts (from what I have been told - no personal experience obv). At the moment, that approach is fine because it suits the girls that like that sort of thing, but if Beavers closed to girls you would have a whole group of girls joining Rainbows who want to do other things as well.

Anyway, back on topic, I'm not actually against single sex groups in theory and I certainly don't see anything wrong with an all boys craft group - it's great that they are getting to learn all those useful (and fun) skills. I agree that if the OP's is forced to go mixed it will probably quickly be swamped by girls because that does seem to be what happens with groups.

Its not that if one girl joins then the boys will drop out. Its that next term, its seen as a mixed activity so girls might want to join, and eventually the balance will be swayed away from a boys group to a mixed then even though its listed as mixed it will be mostly girls.

OP I think you are doing a great job. YANBU. I hope the council can see the error of their ways.

It's not about seeing girls as people - they already do that at school!

What? Is equality for lessons only now?

No, and that is not what I said is it? Stop twisting stuff. My children know that boys and girls are just people and they mix and play with them at school. A single sex club isn't going to change that.

You'd seriously tell your kid that it's fine to drop an activity they enjoy because it now includes girls?

That isn't what I said is it? I said I would let them drop it if they were not comfortable going there. You'd seriously force your child to attend a club they were uncomfortable with?

The world is a very sexist place but I'm surprised women are okay with this.

Yes, the world is a very sexist place and no I am not OK with that. THis is not sexist - there are other clubs that are mixed, their are other clubs that are female only. It is about equity, not equality.

Op, your club seems to be very successful. Could you mobilise the parents who support you to also 'write to the council'?

Do you have a local CVS(Council for Voluntary Service) where you live OP? Or a Community Organiser?

They will be able to help you, including setting up a constitution, and they will give you advice on how to proceed. You're not doing anything wrong and they would probably back you up.

I'd write to the council and say that the reason it's boys only is that you're trying to break down sexual stereotypes by encouraging boys to take part in crafts traditionally deemed to be female only activities.

You can ask to speak at a council meeting put across your point as well.

NB My children go to single sex schools.

The mother of the girl sounds a right cow.

Funny my old scout group as I was leaving as a kid eventually became all boys from divorced families. The mothers were trying to find male role models for their sons. I'm actually glad i made it through while it was still family orientated (ours was boys and girls mixed group). The single moms never wanted to contribute to the group which eventually killed it a few years down the line.

Sometimes, the best way to deal with the effects of entrenched cultural gender roles at any speed is with targeted programmes. This is one of those times.

If you just label a traditionally gendered activity "boys and girls welcome", most of the children from the sector less likely to participate (and their parents!) will still feel like interlopers when they even consider signing up. Because a "and boys/girls [delete as applicable] welcome" does not go anywhere even near cancelling out a lifetime of learning that x activity isn't for boys/girls! Most children and adults aren't that blasé about the possibility of turning up, finding themselves the only male/female in the room, and finding that the organisers didn't actually expect a boy/girl to turn up.

All in all, this woman reminds me of a pillock who thought running women's-only self-defense courses discriminated against men, and should be replaced by coed self-defense classes. As if there aren't enough mixed martial arts classes out there.

You have to wonder how many of the girls in beavers asked to go and how many were signed up by mothers making a point.....

I think that point is bollocks tbh.

We have girls who were Rainbows / Brownies but had older brothers at Cubs / Scouts and saw what they did. After getting bored and frustrated by Guiding they couldn't wait to switch and start Scouting.

This comment implies that it the children have an inability to make that decision and also that Rainbows/Beavers, Brownies/Cubs & Guides/Scout are very similar apart from whether its girls only or mixed but with more boys involved generally.

The reality is there is a very real difference in what the kids do. The organisations are set up more differently than you might think and the ethos is more different than you think. Local groups can differ wildly too due to leadership.

Its like comparing apples and oranges. They should be judged on the activities they do and the ethos a group has rather than whether they are single sex or not.

Personally for this reason, I'm glad the council have told you to bugger off. I think Guides should be forced to take boys ftw as these divisions are created by reinforcing the idea that this is a 'girls or boys only activity'.

Kids need to learn to do things around the opposite sex without fear as other wise as soon as they are put into that mixed environment they think they should still have that fear and never actually overcome it.

Look the OP's doing a good thing by challenging the assumption that crafts are just for girls. Why not challenge the view that having girls around makes something less desirable at the same time?

Since there are other options for girls and not for boys the boys will still be in the majority - unless parents encourage the attitude that the club's no good now because it has girls in.

Why not do this? Might as well teach girls early that they're excluded from certain things for the crime of having a vagina.

Rhi, almost the while of modern life, bar the toilets has girls in it. Chances are pretty good the boys in the club go to mixed schools, and yet a boys' only craft club has been remarkably successful. If they want a mostly-male space (OP presumably isn't a boy) after all that, I don't think making the craft club mixed is going to make a dent in that preference.

Besides, apples and oranges. Being compared. I presume the boys might be quite A-OK at girls being there for a traditionally boys' only activity, but that's different to girls watching them doing new things that are outside their present skillset.

Richard, I take it you're writing stern letters about girls only football development courses, too?

Do any premises owned by your council host any Brownie packs/Guides / Womens institute meetings? If so I would challenge them on this.
If not I would look for different premises

The difference between girls only spaces and boys only spaces is the many hundred years of oppression of girls which still colours our society.

While I applaud the OP for identifying an inequality and seeking to redress it, comparisons with female-only spaces don't work because women/girls are the oppressed group. It's a far stronger argument to cite other male-only groups such as dads-only sessions at children's centres.

My DC's school are starting a boys-only choir. Historically they've had terrible trouble getting any of the boys to do choir at all, but they're all desperate to join this group. I really don't know how I feel about it and this thread hasn't convinced me one way or the other.

I feel vaguely as though there's a message about (non-sport) activities being taken over by girls - on this thread several people complain that that happens at Beavers/Cubs/Scouts - so boys should stay away for fear of some kind of taint. Can boys only do craft if we keep them hidden away from the girls? There's a risk of perpetuating gender stereotypes rather than smashing them.

Fwiw my three sons attend a (mixed) craft club which is probably 50/50 if not slightly more boys than girls. So I don't believe that the OP's group would necessarily become over represented with girls.

But it's not an obvious fear or something that girls (or boys) are likely to talk about, so it's not that parents are encouraging them to give into the fear, or that the club isn't any good with girls.

it's insidious.

They will say they don't like the activity generally. Or that it's no fun anymore. Or that they aren't much good at it and want to try something else, etc. And when it's an optional activity, parents aren't going to force their child to do it. they probably aren't going to realise it's because of girls - they might think that the boy is just growing up and has different tastes now that he's older. Or that he's finding he doesn't suit crafts and wants to do a different hobby. Or that it's not the right social event for him and he isn't enjoying it. All perfectly valid reasons for quitting something optional.

But it could be that there are roots in the fact that it's now a mixed sex group that are underlying some of that. It would be unlikely that a child would necessarily articulate that.

yes, a child desperate to do sewing and upset that girls are there and who came home and moaned about it, might well get told, 'go back and give it another chance, it's fine, you have just as much right to learn as they do, don't be put off by them being good at it, face your fears'. But that's a child who's already chosen to do the activity and wants to do it - a different scenario from the more subtle one of people just gradually drifting away because 'things like that aren't for boys' or 'I don't want to do it', which is what perpetuates some of the stereotypes.

You can force boys and girls to do things in mixed groups all you want, and insist that they should learn to try things in front of one another, but if some of them feel awkward and embarrassed about it, you're not really encouraging a lifelong interest and enjoyment in the subject.