To think my husband would earn a salary during a PhD?

[Badgoushk]

My husband is thinking about doing a PhD. He did a masters recently and got a high distinction so I don't think he'd have trouble getting accepted. But the question is can we afford it? Would he get paid? Did you get paid during your PhD? How much please? It would be in Energy/Climate change and it would likely be in London. Thanks.

So if he was at SOAS, presumably it was arts/hum/socsci, OP? If so, funding options are far thinner on the ground than in sciences, and he's going to be looking at best at the research council rate - so 15-7k ish tax free stipend. He needs to get a funded place - he's incredibly unlikely to get a permanent job without this, as it's about the only evidence of ability to obtain significant funding an early career person can get. (Essential criteria on most jd 's nowadays, even in the MN- despised post 92s)

Preferably also that should be research council funding as opposed to institutional, but full funding is key. In the general area, London universities have lots of potential for postdoc or tf posts, but you're almost certainly going to have to move or he may have a long commute at some stage before he gets a job that's permanent - possibly even to Europe/the Gulf (lots of money for junior posts in these areas)

No harm in looking to see what's out there - jobs.ac.uk have PhD's advertised all year round, as people get major grants with studentships attached etc However, he's likely to be up against similarly qualified applicants throughout: unusual these days to get full funding without a distinction at MA+first in undergrad outside of science. Not unknown - former student of mine has done it on a 67 at MA with a distinction for the dissertation, in SW DTC area- but not common. Internal applicants can have an advantage if they're considered to be good also, so worth him checking out SOAS first to see what they say.

Like much nowadays, though, it's not enough to be excellent: you also have to be lucky.

Just bear in mind that the job market in humanities academia is shocking, no matter how good you are.

And people often have to hang around a while either before the post-docs or between them, cobbling together some teaching hours to keep the wolf from the door. Not a brilliant situation when you're in your 40s.

It is true, what everyone is telling you about the academic jobs market. It is also true that doing a PhD is often a bit of a miserable experience - it is hard yacker, for not much in the way of security at the end. If you want to be millionnaires there are better ways.

On the other hand, there is way more to life than a career. Doing something you love is worth a lot. And after a certain point, there's only so much money you really need. Yes, TA/RA posts are poorly paid considering the level of qualifications - but at £27k+, it's not exactly minimum wage. Yes, there's a certain amount of insecurity, but if one of you has a secure position, this may not be so much of an issue.

Personally, I think it's better to change horses in your 40s if you're tired of your job than to soldier on in something you dislike for the sake of having a bigger house/car/more holidays abroad. But it comes down to how much you value material things, versus how much you value other things in life. No-one can make that decision except the pair of you.

What I'd add to shovetheholly's post is that, for me at least, doing a PhD was a much more miserable experience than I imagined, for a lot less reward than I'd hoped. It hasn't helped me career wise at all, but was an expensive 4 years when I could have been doing something else.

If DH is miserable, then by all means encourage him to consider a career change. But there must be options that don't involve the expense, time investment and sheer graft of a PhD. It takes its toil on the whole family - mentally, emotionally and financially. I don't think it's something to be entered into lightly or without a proper plan.

Getting a funded place will get him 14K a year...and unfunded place will cost around 5K a year because he will have to pay fees.

I would not recommend working part time while doing a PhD....rarely if ever seen that work out.

laurie - . I'm so sorry you had a rough time. I did as well, and it took many, many years before I could really appreciate that there was even a "good" side to it. I do think your advice to proceed with caution is spot on.

What everyone says about post doc jobs is true. The academic job market is dire.

If your DH does the PhD that's four years of him earning little/no money. And then the sort of job he'd be fighting against 200+ applicants for would be £27-30k, probably a 10 month fixed term contract, anywhere in the country.

You'd struggle to move house as you'd struggle to get a mortgage with him being on a fixed term contract. He might get teaching hours here and there but the effort is rarely worth it after travel/prep/marking etc. Especially if you have childcare to consider. Nursery for a day would cost more than he'd be paid.

Many of my friends have PhD's. Very few are working in academia. The one or two that are only got their positions after moving once or twice a year for several years, following fixed term contracts all over the country, going from rental house to rental house. (Arts and humanities subjects).

If he desperately wants to do it then he should,but make sure you go in with your eyes open. Expect to be worse off financially in the short to medium term, expect a lot of stress and don't expect a permanent job at the end. Sorry to put a downer on things, but I've seen the reality.

Running what did they go into? I am in need of a plan B!

My husband has an Oxford PhD in history. He's a natural academic and enjoyed it. Mix of grant and part time work for very frugal existence. The plan was academia. Cue, no jobs.

First job, housing officer. Miserable.
Second job, research specialist in government department (did not require PhD)
Third job university lecturer. He was second choice. 300 mile weekly commute. After two years, new baby, needed to be home.
Fourth, insecure research consultancies for several years. Constantly bidding for new work.
Eventually he returned to his government research job ten years ago. He will be there till retirement. He does some part time teaching on a temp contract on a Masters course. Probably the PhD qualified him for that but it's also due to the specialist knowledge gained in the consultancy years.

I looked at doing a Ph D a few years ago but knew I didn't have the passion to sustain me through it.

One works at a uni in an admin-type role. Went in at the bottom and progressed very quickly, so is now earning a LOT of money. She loves it.

The rest don't do anything related to academia. One works in a coffee shop, another in a deli. A couple work in admin roles for charities. Another is a teaching assistant, another a fitness instructor, another works in a bookshop. These people are all mid 30s and with Firsts, distinctions at MA level and funded PhDs...

Blimey Running I wish I hadn't asked! Sounds grim.

I got about £12,00 a year plus what I earned from teaching at about £35ish an hour.
I wouldn't do it again, it is all true about academic jobs. I'm trapped now and can't see a way out. Sorry for the misery.

Dylan, there are more positive stories out there. I ended up in a fairly niche marketing/brand consultancy type of job. 7 years in and money wise I'm doing pretty well for myself.

You have to be prepared to start at the bottom though, which I was. The PhD is useful in so far as it's a point of interest on your C.V. and makes you stand out. It counts for nada when it comes to your progression.

I think the stats are around 3% of PhD students getting an academic job...thought that maybe the number for physics and or STEM rather than humanities.

Thanks shove. Like I've just said, outside of academia I did okay for myself.

I think it helped that by the end of it I was so disillusioned with academia I wasn't even considering a career there. I just wanted out. So I was totally focused on 'what else' I could do.

Also, I had a spectacular breakdown of trust with my supervisor by the end, which was a big part of why it was such a shit experience. As others have said, that relationship is completely crucial.

LikeDylan If it cheers you up at all, I also know lots of PhDs from my (humanities subject) cohort with jobs outside academia and they're all pretty happy: they include a civil servant (did the fast stream), a few teachers (all at pretty posh schools; they tend to really like being able to have 'Dr So and So' as part of their staff), one who went and trained as a barrister (probably the happiest but requires £££), a sort of consultant for charities (I don't really know what she does to be honest but it seems like she likes it and it pays well), and two who work in academic publishing (interesting but definitely doesn't bring in the big bucks). One of my best friends recently decided she'd had enough of temporary teaching stuff after five years and now works in HR for a big company; it is not exactly thrilling (she says) but she makes £10k more than I do as a lecturer after being there less than a year, and that's only going to go up and up. She is also still very excited about not having any work to do at weekends (though she does work quite late at night fairly regularly).

Everyone I know with a PhD went through a pretty tough time of some sort, whether a series of unstable and badly paid academic jobs or a period of 'what on earth am I going to do now I've decided academia isn't for me'? Almost all of these people are all now (about 8/9 years post PhD) happy with their choices, even if they've made very different choices to each other.

Cheers Margaret that makes for happier reading!

I've had academic jobs since I finished my doctorate in 2002 (didn't realise so few PhDs did go on to be academics - but maybe more in the humanities? Does anyone have stats?) but am now wondering why quite a lot of the time. My husband, who did a PhD in the same field (Eng. Lit) at the same time as me decided on a change of direction immediately after his viva, is in a completely unrelated field, and I think has far more job satisfaction, as well as earning multiple times what I do.

It depends on the college and the course, but in general funding in the UK is difficult to get, limited amount. Beyond the fees there are additional expenses including conferences, and some books and software/tools that you may decide/need to purchase a personal copy. So it's expensive.

There can be opportunities to teach some classes/labs, but often at short notice with a significant work load associated, with only very small payment.

If you are in the science areas, especially software, there can be some contract positions available outside in industry (even for full time student) ... but it is question of balancing them with uni workload.

Feeling rather depressed now! Especially thinking about all the potential travel and living abroad. Maybe we need a rethink! Thanks everyone for giving such an honest account. X

Best of luck to the both of you - and, if he does do a PhD, this way, you'll know it's definitely what you've decided will work for your family and will be his firm choice.

I think a lot of us got into it without really knowing the risks, which is why MN is a good source of warnings on the subject. I don't know why (maybe it's the lonely nature of a PhD and the fact lots of people have children during them), but MN has lots of people who're doing/have done PhDs or are academics.

It can be good. I do know people who did PhDs with young children, or needing not to move, and who managed. There's a brilliant woman on here who completed her PhD with two children, while working, and who's recently moved on to an extremely prestigious Oxbridge job ... but she is both the exception, and incredibly productive. I go through it all aiming to be like that, but taking comfort in knowing that, if it goes tits up for me, it's the norm - most of us don't end up with permanent jobs.

I agree with LRD - I got into it without looking ahead or knowing what I was in for. A warning would have been nice.

I have friends with PhDs who are happy with bits of teaching and bits of research here and there because they love it and it is enough for them.

Oh, yes, and -

fa is right that bits of teaching and bits of research are 'enough' for some people because they love it.

But it is also about expectations. So, I earn just over 30k all told, as a postdoc. That's a teaching fellowship. Research would (in my field) be substantially less well paid but also more likely to secure me another job at the end of my temporary contract. I am told by tenured academics that this is peanuts and that I am being underpaid, and, as I have a solidly middle-class background I am currently very aware of how far 30k doesn't go when you have children. But, it'd be daft not to acknowledge that I am far and away the best-paid person in my partner's immediate family, and that her mother brought up four children on an income that was much lower than I'm used to thinking of as 'enough'. So my DP is very supportive of me doing low-paid postdocs, because to her they are highly paid jobs.

I know that's a bit of a tangent, but it's something I think about a lot, and for me, it does help put in perspective some of the worries. Yes, a PhD may not increase your subsequent wage, but realistically, you are not actually going to starve, either!

Yes, don't be depressed, OP. But it's worth thinking a PhD through in advance as regards longterm prospects and what kind of life you both want etc. It wouldn't be entirely accurate to say I drifted into academia - because it takes far more focus and luck than that - but I certainly never had anyone give me a straight-talking account of it as a career in advance, and of course the landscape of what it's like to be an academic has changed entirely since I started my DPhil. I do fantasise about having a job which involves measurable outcomes and nothing coming home with you in the evenings or at weekends, though of course there are good things about it, too. Best wishes to you and your husband. You're better off knowing as much as possible before making a decision either way, even if the advice isn't wildly gung-ho.

God, I sound like such a wanker. Sorry, the 'as I have a solidly middle-class background' bit was typed with sarcasm.