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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to wish the changes on tax credits had of gone through

326 replies

madhurjazz · 22/09/2016 07:37

They would of affected 1/5th of people on tax credits and that would of caused some issues in the short term so maybe some more help to transition was needed. But since that tax credits sad face woman on question time that was claiming them to run a salon in her lounge they u turned.

This has just resulted in cuts from other areas and not stopped the cuts at all.

Tax credits and housing benefit maybe a good idea for people in the short term. But many people are being long term subsidised and the main beneficiaries are the employers who get away with paying less and making more profits.

I'll probably get flamed for this but how can this country carry on racking up the debt? Its just going to create a greater financial burden on the future generations.

OP posts:
user1471439240 · 22/09/2016 11:05

It is entirely possible to reduce your income by paying up to £40k per annum into a personal pension scheme, thus reducing your income to beneath the tax credit threshold and become eligible to claim.
This is the latest scam.
The system is open to abuse.
It needs a complete overhaul.

callycat1 · 22/09/2016 11:06

Seven I'm sorry but I really don't think that is correct.

AndNowItsSeven · 22/09/2016 11:21

Calmly you may think it's not correct, but you are wrong.

AndNowItsSeven · 22/09/2016 11:21

Sorry cally.

MuseumOfCurry · 22/09/2016 11:22

I am given tax credits and housing benefit, and guess what, I work full time (40 hours per week) and have by all accounts a fairly decent salary. My childcare cost are very high, due to working full time and the rent in the region I live is also high. So what do you suggest for people like me? Unless massively subsidised childcare was offered as well as a rent cap or more access to affordable social housing, there is no solution. I simply do not have enough wage to cover the basic costs as a lone parent. What's your solution?

What does your ex contribute?

AndNowItsSeven · 22/09/2016 11:23

"Although tax credits are means-tested, they have no capital limit. This means there is no amount of savings that will automatically stop you being able to claim tax credits. Income from savings can however be taken into account so as to reduce the amount of your award; the first £300 a year of such income is ignored."

smallfox2002 · 22/09/2016 11:52

"It is entirely possible to reduce your income by paying up to £40k per annum into a personal pension scheme, thus reducing your income to beneath the tax credit threshold and become eligible to claim."

Yeah cause SOOOOO many people are doing that right?

Seeing as the average household income for a household with 2 adults working is £40,000.

user1471439240 · 22/09/2016 12:04

Does that income include tax credits or is it purely earned income?
The example was to highlight the vagaries of the system.

smallfox2002 · 22/09/2016 12:11

All income is be included in that, so tax credits would be included. But that's two adults working full time, so I'd imagine that they wouldn't qualify for much.

Only 40% of families get tax credits btw, or 16% of all households. Its a massively overblown cost.

iPost · 22/09/2016 12:33

I am given tax credits and housing benefit, and guess what, I work full time (40 hours per week) and have by all accounts a fairly decent salary. My childcare cost are very high, due to working full time and the rent in the region I live is also high. So what do you suggest for people like me? Unless massively subsidised childcare was offered as well as a rent cap or more access to affordable social housing, there is no solution. I simply do not have enough wage to cover the basic costs as a lone parent. What's your solution?

Answering your question....

When I am Queen of the World the very first thing I will devise is a 360° policy that -

-enforced child support at realistic levels.

-sanctions of biblical proportions for people who take steps (faux self employment books, hiding assests, declining to work while living with somebody else that supports them) to evade their responsibilities to their children. With a dedicated task force to track, investigate, tail, honey-trap, pressure and anti-PR the fuck out of offenders. Which will be expensive. However in the longer term the more risk averse amoung potential offenders would likely decide the potential cost of evasion is too high compared to savings made via non-contribution. So there'd be fewer offenders to focus efforts on, which would reduce the costs of the policy. I also hold the view that partial and full abondonment of the principle of making your children your priority has long term ramifications for many of the kids in the long term. Which can lead to costs to society, in terms of multi-generational repeated patterns, lost potential, mental health issues and sub clinical emotional issues. I'd hope it would break even in terms of reduced gov spending via lowered health/policing/educational support/SS/child maintence costs. But am not too fussed if it remains an additional expense. Cos... ethical grounds.

-Bird's nest arrangements as standard for the children of seperated parents (specific exemptions when it is not in the best interests of the children). So the parents carry the emotional and logistical burden of a split household, rather than the kids. And one parent isn't lumbered with the real economic/emotional/time/energy investment required by parenthood. While the other pootles around mostly relived of their responsibilities and at risk of ever increasing emotional detachment. It would help cement a "socially acceptable" notion that parenthood isn't something you get to opt out of after you've made real, live children.

As per child care costs. I'd expect people to look into the costs of having children beyond the obvious stuff at birth like nappies/pushchairs etc. But viewing it instead as a large and changing set of costs as the child grows. Costs that will exist even as life's status quo (income, illness, accidents, family stability) changes, perhaps not always for the better. I'd be on board with funding a gov. calculator/economic costs projector so people could be as informed as possible as per what it will likely cost them to raise a child, based on is various ages and stages. With widgets to factor in what it would look like if various curveballs hit. Plus big red reminders that if one should change one's mind about supporting children once the bullet is bitten...the Special Task Force (see above) will be on one's arse with the persistence of a Tom in the vicinity of a Queen on heat.

All the above may be one of the varied reasons why nobody wants me to be Queen of the World.

Back in the real world... I think people need to factor in that it has become socially acceptable enough for parents to opt out of parental responsibilities (all of them. Economic, emotional, time, energy) without suffering any particular social sanction.

I knew that if the worst case scenario hit I could cope and support DS on my own. But 2 or more would not be feasible. Not on the income I earn and am likely to earn. If the shit really hit the fan for my earnings, my family would have been ready, willing and able to support me +1. But more than one would have risked placing too much pressure on them. The late FILs would also have helped in terms of DS if DH had done the dirty. However, that was factored in as a short term source of help, due to their advanced years.

Either the "not so hard to opt out of parental responsibility" status quo changes, or the parent most likely to get lumbered with the majority of the responsibility for any off-speing needs to bear in mind that reality when planning their family.

As long as that is the reality either pushing through sweeping change to minimise parental opting-out, or factoring it into one's family planning (as a possible curve ball) are the only 2 realistic options that give the children the best possible chance of not paying the price for parental choices.

I don't think the gov. stepping in to replace a lack of economic support from one parent has done a great deal to dissuade the numbers who do it. However if the birth rate dropped and people were not shy about pointing to the "might have to do it alone curveball" risk as one of the factors in their family planning, then I think there might be the possibility of policy changes aimed at reducing the extent to which some people opt-out, with little thought to the wide ranging issues this causes their children.

None of which could help you. Because there are no instant solutions. You are living with the result of decades of policy and changes in social outlook.

Which is why I wouldn't advocate stripping away the current support system

  • without a robust, tested system ready to be phased in to take its place
  • putting into place systems to thwart the causes of need for lone parent support.

-pleanty of time for expectations and mind sets to adjust to a new reality.

MaliceInWonderland78 · 22/09/2016 12:34

Museum My thoughts exactly.

I don't want to turn this into a maintenance/single parent thread, but I'd venture that there are very few single parents that aren't on tax credits.

There is no magic bullet, but getting NRPs to pay towards supporting their children would be a start. If we can devise a system whereby loans are fronted to students (a good number of whom probably aren't cut out for university) then surely a similar system could be used for children (up to a maximum of 3) so that RPs aren't at the mercy of errant NRPs.

Both the RP and the NRP then 'pay back' when their earnings allow.

MuseumOfCurry · 22/09/2016 12:36

They do a very, very good job of going after child support in the US. I'm not sure why they can't do this here. It's a national disgrace.

minifingerz · 22/09/2016 12:42

iPost I agree with almost everything you say

EXCEPT

A careful cost/expenditure analysis of having children would quickly reveal the following:

That housing and childcare costs are so high, and secure, well paid jobs so scarce that having a family without subsidies from government is something that only a small minority of people should do.

And it's a big ask to say - for the sake of the tax payer, most of you should remain childless.

user1471439240 · 22/09/2016 12:43

Tony Blair apparently said to Gordon Brown "do you want the state to be the father of choice" when he first floated the idea of tax credits.
Some may say that has come to fruition.

MuseumOfCurry · 22/09/2016 12:46

That housing and childcare costs are so high, and secure, well paid jobs so scarce that having a family without subsidies from government is something that only a small minority of people should do.

Surely this is regional.

iPost · 22/09/2016 12:47

Malice

That is an interesting idea. So where a parent cannot, or will not, provide economic support they merely defer the costs, rather than have them covered for them.

Is there anywhere actually employing the concept as part of their system at the moment ?

brasty · 22/09/2016 12:47

People had children before there were benefits for the working poor, so there will still be children. But poverty then was very very real, do we really want to go back to lots of underweight kids, kids with caring parents who do not have warm enough clothes, families living in 1 or 2 rooms as they not afford the rent on anything else? No wages do not magically go up. Poverty goes up.

Piscivorus · 22/09/2016 12:48

cally A quick Google would seem to suggest that AndNow is correct and you are wrong, see here

I have very little knowledge of all this but think iPost has put one of the best posts I have ever read on this subject

MaliceInWonderland78 · 22/09/2016 13:13

iPost Not that I'm aware.

I'm enjoying reading your contributions by the way - (unusually informative and useful for Mumsnet)

Pisssssedofff · 22/09/2016 13:17

Father of the state is ludicrous because the problem with being a single parent is not just monetary, it's lost opportunity. Something I cannot quite get through to my ex is that his child support doesn't even cover half their basic expenses however much it may seem to him and having them is to my determent. Something he accepts whenever I tell him to have a go himself if he thinks he can do a better job, but doesn't accept when asked for any sort of help.
Women really need to wake up to the fact that motherhood is a con tbh

PortiaCastis · 22/09/2016 13:34

I think you have to be a single Mum like myself who's NRP has skipped the Country and paid absolutely zilch for over 5 years to understand how women are screwed over.
My earning potential is better now that my dd is older but I have really struggled.
Yes I've screwed the Country over by getting my arm that he broke reset, by not being able to work due to MH issues and the list goes on.
Fortunately I'm self employed now and claim nothing apart from CB which goes straight to dd.
Finding words here is difficult but try it OP try grabbing a child and running without a penny and losing your ivory tower.

minifingerz · 22/09/2016 13:45

"do we really want to go back to lots of underweight kids, kids with caring parents who do not have warm enough clothes, families living in 1 or 2 rooms as they not afford the rent on anything else?"

I think there are quite a few people who would find this very tolerable.

My mum's friends - mostly m/c home-owning widows in their 70's and 80's, who intend to live until 100 on their/their husband's civil service, index linked, final salary pensions. They would love to see feckless single mums entirely impoverished. Then they could take up charity visiting like the well-to-do matrons used to in the Victorian era.

Iliveinalighthousewiththeghost · 22/09/2016 13:53

WTC should not be paid. It shouldn't need to be. Wages alone should be enough to live on.
It's fucking infuriating that people are working full time and can't pay their mortgage, rent and living expenses without HMRC to hold their hands.
Your argument is not with the vulnerable and poor. It's with the powers that be who allow employers to pay a ridiculously low wage.

user1471439240 · 22/09/2016 14:18

Low wages, high shelter costs have been masked sucessfully for over a decade.
The housing market is THE economy today.
The billions of money printed to "quantatively ease" has flown into unproductive assets, housing in the main. The money should have been invested in industry, infrastrucure, peoples futures.
House price increases are celebrated still today, hearalded as a measure of prosperity.
Food increases and fuel, not so much.
Imagine how much spare money people would have if housing and by consequence rentshad not tripled in value over 3 short years in the 2000's.
That is the problem.

PortiaCastis · 22/09/2016 14:35

Op please read this and accept my thanks for making me feel depressed

www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-17139088

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