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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to wish the changes on tax credits had of gone through

326 replies

madhurjazz · 22/09/2016 07:37

They would of affected 1/5th of people on tax credits and that would of caused some issues in the short term so maybe some more help to transition was needed. But since that tax credits sad face woman on question time that was claiming them to run a salon in her lounge they u turned.

This has just resulted in cuts from other areas and not stopped the cuts at all.

Tax credits and housing benefit maybe a good idea for people in the short term. But many people are being long term subsidised and the main beneficiaries are the employers who get away with paying less and making more profits.

I'll probably get flamed for this but how can this country carry on racking up the debt? Its just going to create a greater financial burden on the future generations.

OP posts:
callycat1 · 22/09/2016 09:48

no, you can't

smallfox2002 · 22/09/2016 09:49

The main reason these threads come up all the time on MN is really just the fact that some people can't bare the fact that someone, somewhere might be getting a benefit that they are not.

InTheseFlipFlops · 22/09/2016 09:49

Baby i think the limit on savings is £16,000.

InTheseFlipFlops · 22/09/2016 09:53

Brasty Other than housing everything cost a bit more in the 70's, people had to charge enough to earn a decent wage to live.
Going back to the coffee shop mentioned above, the coffee shop would have had to charge more to pay the workers wages.

AndNowItsSeven · 22/09/2016 09:55

Sofa there is no savings limit on tax credits.

Slarti · 22/09/2016 09:56

YABU for thinking that saving £X on tax credits would have meant spending £X on something else. I mean, were you born yesterday???

AndNowItsSeven · 22/09/2016 09:56

No flip flops there is no limit. The reason is nice middle class people used to claim tax credits before it became a " benefit".

brasty · 22/09/2016 10:01

Wages have been falling in real terms over the last few years. Before that, since 1980 they had been rising in real terms.

Sofabitch · 22/09/2016 10:09

thanks for clarifying the savings thing.

kinda sums up that it is an in work benefit that is actual there to subsidise corporations. I do think workers should be allowed to save.

callycat1 · 22/09/2016 10:12

There is a savings limit to tax credits!

MaliceInWonderland78 · 22/09/2016 10:18

I agree with other posters that the minimum wage needs to go up to enable people to live - though you might not reasonably expect much in the way of luxuries if you're on minimum wage.

My STBXW is in receipt of tax credits. She receives £200 per week (3 DCs). Add to that £50 per week Child Benefit, the £200 per week she earns (2 days a week) and the £300 per week that I have to give her.........

I obviously don't want to see her or my children living in poverty, but I'm slightly Confused at a system that throws up this result.

I'm pretty sure that her situation (though not uncommon) is not the norm, but I do wonder at a system which subsidises people (my wife has young children so this isn't aimed at her) to work part time long term.

Babyroobs · 22/09/2016 10:22

If my dh got made redundant tomorrow we would get around £1k per month (tax credits and CB for 4 kids) on top of my part time wages of around £1200. We have no mortgage and my dh has substantial savings ( in a very low interest account). All we need to buy is food & clothing and pay for utilities.

gamerchick · 22/09/2016 10:26

Thank you! Yes that's exactly what I'm talking about. I know the same where I work. I need to employ agency staff come Christmas as the permies on tc and hb are unwilling to take on any more hours

Are these extra hours just for Christmas or permanent? Only one of those options is attractive to those on TC.

AllMyBestFriendsAreMetalheads · 22/09/2016 10:27

It's a shit system. But the question is how do we make the system better for the country as a whole without screwing over all the people who are in genuine need of their TC. There are people who are working part-time because working full-time doesn't earn them any more money but there are also people who are self-employed and can 'earn' just the right amount of money after expenses to retain entitlement to TC/CB. Are these two groups of people the same, or is one better because they are working full-time, even if they are not only costing the government in TC but also avoiding paying tax that could/should be going into the big pot of 'taxpayers money'?

There are also part-time workers who would like to work full-time, but are unable to.

For the most part, I think we're all just trying to do the best for ourselves and our own families, whatever end of the pay scales you're on. I could work full-time hours and not be reliant on TC, and maybe that would make me a really good citizen but to me, it's not worth losing that time with my family.

It's hard to want to do things for the greater good when there's the summer holiday juggle of new uniform over doing fun things in the holidays and I'm not trying to decide which yacht I should buy to gain the biggest tax deduction.

Babyroobs · 22/09/2016 10:29

Malice - I agree £750 pw even with 3 kids is a lot although I don't obviously know your ex wife's outgoings. I don't understand why the state pays again even when nrp's pay regularly and reliably as many do. There must be some kind of system which would reliably pay the benefit to ensure kids don't end up in poverty but then reclaims that money from the nrp somehow but the again I guess that detracts from the couples sorting things themselves. I thnk the whole system needs an overhaul.

kali110 · 22/09/2016 10:30

Ahh, it's THAT poster Biscuit

iPost · 22/09/2016 10:31

I think like many who live in countries where benefits tend to come with conditions like-

-being contribution based
-being time limited
-being fixed (ie no increase if your outgoings like rent, no. of children increase)

I find the current British system, seemingly devoid of all 3 of the above conditions, a bit baffling. Almost like it was (accidentally, I presume) set up to trap people into a form of "never quite enough" dependency and keep them just desperate enough to accept unfavourable employment terms and some very inflated outgoings.

However you can't set up a system, allow people to make permanent life choices based on the existence of said system and then whip from under their feet.

Any changes would have to be phased in and other systems would need to be up, running and working (in practice as well as theory) before the goal posts got moved.

Maybe the amount of untaxed earned income needs to be raised.

Certainly there needs to be a far better system of making NRPs provide realistic levels of economic contribution for their children.

Might be worth casting an eye on systems other countries use that work well enough without causing undue hardship and social issues. However that needs to be done by looking at how individual policies function in the context of the whole system, not just cherry picking a superficially attractive bit and expecting it to work flawlessly outside of its original context.

On top of that there will also have to be a transition period allowed for a mental adjustment. One of the marked differences I see in people posting on here, and the people I live amoung, is how they assess their position in terms of extending their family. On here people often have a "how well things stand now", outlook, a quite optimistic "things probably won't get worse" sort of view. Whereas where I live the emphasis is on how you would cope if things went bent. Like a lost job, an accident, or an illness. Which tends to be a more pessimistic process (ie "It COULD happen to me and the safety net won't be enough if we have one more child") and more often than not it results in a smaller family. Which means a lowered population growth rate, carrying implications of its own.

Those difference IMO are neither genetic, nor innately cultural. They are environmental. They are connected to a reality of just how hole free a safety net appears to be in the context of a larger family. Expectations of support aren't created overnight, by the same token they can't be scaled back at the speed of light. It would be supremely unfair on the children in the mix if that reality wasn't taken into consideration.

Things could be done differently. However unless existing systems are replaced with robust new systems and a period of adjustment is allowed for, undue hardship is likely, and civil disobedience not an utter impossibility. Anything saved from an overly rapid, unprepared for "changing mindsets" and cost cutting exercise could end up costing far more (economically and socially) due to unintended consequences.

Certainly I think there is room to suggest that the current system in Britain is playing a role in an overheated house price/rental market and suppressed wages. Perhaps also the small, but not negliable, rise in second and even third families, which may be carrying a risk of poorer outcomes for the children involved. All that suggests that unintended consequences are not always de-bugged out of a new system before it gets rolled out to the British public.

I'd immagine in order to make change as painless as possible for the small people with no power and no say in the matter, you'd need a couple of decades at least to transistion from the current system to something different. With pleanty of up front warning, so expectations can adjust and the can isn't just kicked down the road.

Bear in mind also that if a need vacuum is created, it will get filled. People won't curl up and die of "not enough" to provide satisfaction for those that disapprove of them. They tend to fight back if an unfulfilled need they have now is pressing enough. Over here we do not have the costs of your benefits system. On the other hand we have plenty of black markets (employment/housing/everything else) and rule bending where necessary. Which I am not sure the British mentality could cope with as well as they cope with a potentially inflated, but essentially controlled and regulated, benefit system.

Which I guess is a very long way of saying "be careful of what you wish for, it might not look the way you think it would if it came true"

BrianCoxWithBellsOn · 22/09/2016 10:32

Why am I replying!? Seriously!? But I have to.

I'm one of those 16 hours a week, minimum wage shirkers who "won't" take on extra hours over Christmas.

Take your head out from your arse/the Daily Mail and realise this:

I would happily take on extra hours and earn extra, especially for Christmas.

Unfortunately, if I was to do that, I'd have to inform HB every time my weekly wage changes. So, a trip to the council offices to scan my pay slip every time. Not a huge problem, admittedly, I have a car and live close to town.

My HB then takes 5-6 weeks to update. By the time the extra hours are taken into account, it's over a month since I earned the extra and the HB/CT is backdated, so I am now in arrears with Rent and have an overpayment on my HB/CT and on a higher rate, even though I'm back down to my standard 16 hours/£7.25 an hour.

The extra I earn is also taken pound for pound. I don't have a problem with that per se, if I'm earning "enough" then benefits shouldn't be paid as well. Only the extra overtime here and there is never "enough" to pull me through the HB/CT trap and leave me with the "extra" I've worked for.

After all that's sorted, I get to April and unless I've factored in to my last tax credit renewal, the possibility of working overtime , I'll end up owing tax credits as well.

So yeah. You have no idea what you're actually talking about.

AllMyBestFriendsAreMetalheads · 22/09/2016 10:35

House prices are the elephant in the room when it comes to welfare. But we couldn't do anything that might affect those, plenty of landlords in government who wouldn't want to see their investments fall in value.

callycat1 · 22/09/2016 10:36

Good post iPost

BrianCoxWithBellsOn · 22/09/2016 10:39

Before anyone jumps on me for daring to have a car...it was given to me by my aunt, it's a 51 plate and I owe my parents more than it costs to run, in garage repayments for various problems. If i didn't have it, I wouldn't be able to get to work. It only costs me a tenner a week to get to work and back though, much cheaper than the alternative of taxis (work isn't on/near a bus route!)

Long term, I'm gaining experience in a job I love and my youngest D.C. will start school next year hopefully allowing me to up my hours to full time. I'd still be on tax credits though.

KellyElly · 22/09/2016 10:39

I am given tax credits and housing benefit, and guess what, I work full time (40 hours per week) and have by all accounts a fairly decent salary. My childcare cost are very high, due to working full time and the rent in the region I live is also high. So what do you suggest for people like me? Unless massively subsidised childcare was offered as well as a rent cap or more access to affordable social housing, there is no solution. I simply do not have enough wage to cover the basic costs as a lone parent. What's your solution?

HarveySchlumpfenburger · 22/09/2016 10:54

So your agreed that cutting HB and tax credits will have no effect on rents then AllMy. Because the government have cut back on both of those and still are.

AndNowItsSeven · 22/09/2016 11:02

Cally THERE IS NO SAVINGS LIMIT TO TAX CREDITS. If you have over £300 in interest on your savings then that counts as income that's it.

wasonthelist · 22/09/2016 11:05

Yabvu OP in showing a callous disregard for -
People in genuine need
English grammar
The economics of running a country

Are you a politician?