To think that scholarships for women shouldn't be open to men?

[HermioneWeasley]

So, scholarship to support women in STEM - a massive issue for all societies that we're not harnessing th talents of half our populations in this area.

But if you "identify as a woman in a way that's meaningful to you" you can apply.

What the ever loving fuck?

Another example of the damage being done to actual women, by saying that "woman" is a feeling in a man's head.

It's not so much that people on mumsnet are dismissing the idea that there may be a biological reason for people being trans, dybil, so much as not then making the next huge step that just because they identify as trans, they are identical to the sex they identify with and should be treated as if they were such in all cases without being able to have an impartial assessment of the individual in sensitive situations like female prisons and shelters and make exclusions as necessary.

So...everyone? Given that I don't know a single person who conforms to a wholly masculine or feminine stereotype (or 'gender identity' if you prefer).

Yup. This is why the whole trans argument totally falls down. On the one hand it insists gender is binary, you are either male or female, or MtT or FtT. On the other hand you have folk like wee Leo who is gender binary or perhaps gender fluid but definitely trans.

And scarily we are on the way to legislation that allows people to self identify as a sex with no questioning allowed.

But I don't think their rights need to stomp all over women's.

Why do you feel that way we all have rights and different needs so why would it infringe on women's rights.

The reason why women opt out of work after a certain point is because of children

And because the men in their lives don't step up and participate with those children. I've held onto my career by the skin of my teeth. DP barely felt any effects at all. Societal expectations are HUGE.

80s

One of my colleagues was murdered by her husband this summer. She's one of the two women a week killed by their partners in the UK. I think it's 2 a day in the US.

Can you pop round and tell her kids that the battle for equality has been women please?

Why do you feel that way we all have rights and different needs so why would it infringe on women's rights.

Well, for example, here, rather than have a scholarship for trans, and a scholarship for women, they've just bundled trans into the women's one.

Same with toilets, sporting events, the Green party - there are Men and Non-Men.

What is gender binary and gender fluid I have never heard of these terms.

Sorry that should have said gender non-binary = form identify as solely male or solely female. Gender fluid = sometimes identify as male, sometimes as female.

I might actually apply for this scholarship.

I think it's about time women stepped up to the plate and took on work in proper, challenging fields. We can do it just as well as the men, and they probably need a break from pushing the boundaries of technology and medical science.

Who is with me?

www.scientificamerican.com/article/is-there-something-unique-about-the-transgender-brain/

Transgender people's brains have been shown, in some respects, to be more like the brains of the gender they identify with. There's a few studies in that link which suggest a biological basis.

Given that the broad scientific consensus does seem to be that there a biological reason for people being transgender, the analogies to 'identifying as disabled' and alike seem a little...let's say 'distasteful'.

And then there's the fact that in most workplaces, taking men and women of the same level, the men will still be paid more and the women will still be expected to work harder and pick up more of the shit work.
Porn culture, aggressive gendering of children's toys, harassment from a young age, domestic violence, rape culture and low convictions for rape, men interrupting women and talking over them, and on and on and on and that's in the Western world where we are supposedly equal.
Not even beginning to address what women's lives are like in the rest of the world.
So excuse me for not putting the rights of a subgroup of men first.

They would be able to identify with cultural references and have a genuine insight into the culture which someone who is white wouldn't have. I have a friend who was born with a disorder that meant she had to choose whether to grow up as a man or a woman. She chose man as a child and now says she relates more to women. and dresses accordingly. Where does that fit into your neat box of man and woman?

• Form identify = don't identify

Same with toilets, sporting events, the Green party - there are Men and Non-Men.

What about when trans-men use men's bathrooms?

I'm already in a STEM field but thanks all the same, yummy. I tried not to leave all the hard work to the men.

Yy chocchoc.
What it is that prevents trans women from "widening the bandwidth" of what it means to be a man? Why not broaden the scope of what it means to be a man rather than adopt (and distort) womanhood?

80's does she have both sex organs.

Transgender people's brains have been shown, in some respects, to be more like the brains of the gender they identify with. There's a few studies in that link which suggest a biological basis.

That was debunked last year.

pan - it's a well-established fact that single-sex girls schools have a higher percentage opting for STEM subjects. There are probably a variety of factors - not having boys dominate lessons, different peer pressure dynamics, and the fact that if there is an A level Further Maths set, or Computer Science, or a robotics club then clearly it is meant for girls. My DD goes to such a school - she's in yr13, going to be an engineer, one of 4 Arkwright scholars. She's also had me as a role model - a scientist who writes software.

On the other hand, though, dybil, brain sex differences are increasingly being shown to be minimal and malleable:

www.newscientist.com/article/dn28582-scans-prove-theres-no-such-thing-as-a-male-or-female-brain/

Transgender people's brains have been shown, in some respects, to be more like the brains of the gender they identify with

That's interesting given that all of the research I have seen says that male and female brains are the same - you cannot tell feom a brain wha sex a person is. Eg www.newscientist.com/article/dn28582-scans-prove-theres-no-such-thing-as-a-male-or-female-brain/

I heard on radio 4 the other day that woman under the age of 30 were out earning men. It is not my experience. I am not saying thing are perfect and they can't be improved. One of the reasons women don't follow science is because they just aren't encouraged enough. Certainly though if you are prepared to take the minimum amount of maternity leave your career will not be damaged.

dybil there have been small studies that have found differences, and other studies that have shown nothing. The most recent meta analysis found no evidence for sex based brain differences

Therefore our best evidence is that there is no physiological basis for being transgender.

There might be something that's discovered in the future, of course, but for most things we tend to base diagnosis and treatment on the best evidence at the time.

There is no evidence that surgical or hormonal transition improves mental health outcomes for trans people either.

It's bizarre and arguably unethical that we keep medicalising this illness and chopping off healthy body parts, instead of treating it as a mental illness.

Snap, ItsAll .

Actually, Daphna Joel's TED talk is fascinating and well worth watching.

Hermione, how awful, I am so sorry.