To think that scholarships for women shouldn't be open to men?

[HermioneWeasley]

So, scholarship to support women in STEM - a massive issue for all societies that we're not harnessing th talents of half our populations in this area.

But if you "identify as a woman in a way that's meaningful to you" you can apply.

What the ever loving fuck?

Another example of the damage being done to actual women, by saying that "woman" is a feeling in a man's head.

If you started with 10 fellowships and 100 male potential applicants who were equally qualified with 100 female potential applicants then:

85 male candidates and 15 female candidate apply (because of society wide unconscious bias against women in STEM)

17 male and 3 female candidates get shortlisted (because unconscious bias on the shortlisting panels part will make the equally qualified women seem about 10% worse than their male counterparts)

Then 2 women and 8 men will get the fellowships (because the women will be surprising good at interview and recoup the loses at shortlisting...)

And voila - 20% female (where most STEM fellowships end up at.

So then you have an all female fellowship which is aiming to reduce inequality...rather than actually being unfair in itself.

It is their gender identity that holds them back (and societies bias of what that gender is good at) not their biological sex.

That's why I think people who are XY but have always thought of themselves as female should be included. They may well have the same biases that they aren't as good at STEM that many XX women do.

Sorry I don't see how this is. Gender identity is how you see yourself, women have been socialised from birth because of how others see them due to their sex. How is anyone supposed to know what a newborn's future gender is and treat them as such based on that? People don't walk around with their gender tattooed to their forehead.

For example how do you know the 50 females in that room all had female gender?

because how others interact with us isn't everything.

What about all those lovely adverts telling girls they should 'look good for the party' and play with dolls, while the boys play with cars and build things?

If you watch the advert and identify with the girls then that is telling you that you should value friendship, and sharing and building consensus, and being pretty, and wearing pretty clothes....and that is the identity that does the damage when it comes to STEM. Your self identity...what you think you are good at, heavily influenced by what you have been taught you have value for being good at.

If you see other girls being praised for being quite and kind and compassionate...and you feel you are a girl inside then surely that has as big an effect as if you actually were an XX girl?

Although how others directly treat you is of course also important....

I HATE that every time DD wears her orange and pink swim suit people ask her/me if she can really swim well enough to be in the deep end...while the number of times this has happened when she wears her batman swim costume is zero.

So I don't disagree with you...I just think the self-identification is likely more important when it comes to societies messages about 'people like you' and what you should be good at.

Username it is obvious that your gripe is with the charity offering the scholarship to women only despite the explanations put forward as to why that is. If you are that bothered write to the charity funding it

judy you said
If you want me to name other female "murderers/violent female criminals off the top of my head, you have to bear in mind that of necessity they don't get the publicity because they're not that unusual"

That statement is patently wrong, murdering (or otherwise violent) women are unusual. I was using statistics to demonstrate that.

I agree with most of what you're saying Ice and I also get sick of assumptions as the mother of a daughter! However based on what you say it just surprises me that you're in the "gender is the problem" camp rather than "biological sex is the problem" camp.

Girls are told to be kind and lovely and quiet because they are biological females and society attributes those qualities to females. I do think this goes a long way in establishing 'gender' (as in boys = good at science and problem solving and girls = being kind and caring). Is that what you mean? If so, I think gender is still irrelevant in this situation because those gender norms are still forced onto girls because of their biology.

If this makes sense, my head is now officially boggled

Username.

I want not to be lazy and just go for the MRA accusation.... so I'll try and deal with your point. even though I think it's rather bonkers.

1. Girls who are into STEM are ridiculed for not fitting the stereotype of a girl (oops that sounds a bit TERFY)
2. Expectations of teachers. (there's that damned TERFY stereotype accusation again... won't have an impact on those transwomen I mean boys)
3. Just plain stereotypes. At school, out of school, people on the street.....
4. childcare A career in STEM is demanding, you have to be pretty devoted... women are primary carers... (OMG it's like a TERF fest with all this reference to stereotypes that just don't exist and hold women back like some sort of code on how we should behave.,.... it's almost like GENDER is a social construct designed to fuck women over)
5. Competition. Damned compliant women are taught not to be competitive.
6. Marginalisation... out of the boys club.
7. Bias. From all. (see Obama's recent female staffing response to being ignored)

Then there's the issues discussed in journal Science might offer further explanations why. After detailing shocking examples of discrimination and misogyny – from inappropriate discussions about rape and the female anatomy to colleagues’ failure to acknowledge female expertise, the author writes: “It may be too much to ask women in science organisations to change misogynist culture in a world that remains misogynistic.

Crimes get reported if they are unusual in some way. Crimes involving trans people get high publicity because of the nature of the people involved and because there aren't many of them. On the other hand, statistics show that in the UK there are currently over 750 women in custody for crimes involving violence, and even greater numbers who have either left custody, did not get a custodial sentence, or who have served their sentences. Felascloak, I invited you to produce some evidence if you are contending that each of those cases was so newsworthy that it received publicity. You haven't done so. It is the case that newspapers don't bother to report every case involving violent women because, to them, a lot of those cases really are not that unusual and therefore not newsworthy.

But the central point which you seem to be anxious to obfuscate is that, just as the likes of Hindley and Allitt are not representative of all women, people like Davina Ayrton are not representative of all trans people. If we are going to say "And paedophile rapist Davina Ayrton. And Murderer Claire Darbyshire. No woman's suffering has ever been as great as theirs" it could equally well be said, for example, "And serial murderer Myra Hindley. And facilitator of child abuse and murder Tracey Connelly. No man's suffering is as great as theirs."

judy my point in naming Transwomen who've committed terrible crimes, was not to say that they are representative of all TW, but in response to a poster who said something like all trans women are more deserving than "poor little women"

(Can't be bothered to scroll back through all the pages to find the exact wording)

That's why I queried if she was including those Transwomen in the more deserving category.

I can't even be bothered to respond to such tripe.

The newspapers certainly don't report all violent crimes by men (of which transwomen are a subset) against women are they are commonplace, Judy.

And can I just say to the posters saying "well, I don't think there should be any scholarships for disadvantaged groups at all, I don't believe in them" that that is a massive derail. Just like icebeing once entirely derailed a thread about trans athletes pushing women out of sport by going on and on and on about how there shouldn't be any women's sport anyway.

Judy

Were you a girl?

Judy

Were you a girl?

I'm just wondering.

The point about transwomen and violence is that they commit crime at the same rate as men. Women make up 5 % prison population

In sport a trans woman should not be competing against a woman. Men and women are built differently. I never heard of women being pushed out of sports.

I think I am going of track with this I will post it anyway. Transwomen do marry women and have a long marriage together. They even have children I am the product of a relationship like this. Unless a man wants to fully change as a woman and get the chop. Then they should be seen as women but they will never fully be a woman because we are still different. I could never say that to my dad. End conclusion is if he makes the adjustments and commits to a lifestyle living as a woman then she should be treated as such.

Sunshine.

How your Dad identifies is up to him, how you see him is up to you....
and how I see him is up to me.

Yep, I'm with FRET. Wish your dad all the best though.

Thank for posting sunshine on what is a personal issue for you. I would like to ask a few questions as I'm fascinated by your family dynamic. If not, I totally understand. I'm using he as you have done so.

Did your dad identify as female to your mum from the beginning?

As a child ,did you ever know him identifying as a female?

What pronouns does he prefer , is this an issue for you or your siblings?

How this impacted/or not the relationship with your mum?

Feel free to answer or not, I't is rare that an individual come along that may add to the conversation from a different view point and I'd like to hear it!

Nuanced, researched and referenced discussion of women in STEM here:
sciencegrrl.co.uk/assets/SCIENCE-GRRL-Stem-Report_FINAL_WEBLINKS-1.pdf

No one knows me on here its easy to talk about it but in public it isn't. When he was at work he was a man at home he dressed as a woman. He gave himself a name but I don't know what he wanted to identify with he never wanted to talk about it. I did ask questions when I was 13 and he walked off upset with me and that was that.

He was dressing way before I was born his mother left him when he was a child and his aunt brought him up that could have triggered it. His mother was close by but for some reason she couldn't bring him up.

He didn't want me to tell anyone outside he said the secret has to stay in these 4 walls. I found it very difficult to talk to people at school and make friendships I think I came across a bit needy. I remember a boy from class ask me when will I come out of my shell and be chatty and loud like everyone else.

My mum has always known about it and she has never talked about it. I wish my dad was more comfortable in his skin and just accept who he is. Maybe I could have had a better father daughter relationship with him growing up. The day I left home he said to me I left him and he sold his house to move from London to Newark. He didn't even tell me he was moving and shortly after that I became pregnant. He was an arse that year he called my unborn child will she be a dog or a mongrel. To me he will always be a coward. People like Caitlyn Jenner I have respect for they are not scared to be who they are.

Sunshineonancloudyday

Thank you for taking the time to share a personal, and very interesting tale. I have much respect, both for you having shared that story, and you having lived it. It's a situation very few can relate to and i'm glad i logged in tonight as a result.

Back on topic, it'd be interesting to know, if the MN hardliners were appraising the scholarship applications, how they'd score yourself, versus your father, versus Bruce Jenner, versus, say, Paris Hilton.

Bearing in mind the scholarship rubric, of course.

FullTime Paris Hilton would be the only eligible candidate in my eyes, because she the only one who is a woman - is that not an obvious answer from us

However if all the other people "identify as women" technically they're eligible too