To be just a tiny bit bothered by what I saw at my son's nursery this morning?

[KingofnightvisionKingofinsight]

My 3-year-old DS just started at a new nursery. The teachers are lovely and kind and DS seems happy, and obviously that's most important. But anyway...

This morning at dropoff DS wanted me to stay for a few minutes so I did. I watched him sit down at a craft table set with lovely materials including glue, glitter, scraps of fabric and cotton wool, and small yellow paper circles. My DS spent several minutes carefully applying dumping half a bottle of glue to a good portion of his paper, and then he asked the teacher to pass him some glitter. She very sweetly encouraged him to put more glue on other parts of the paper first, which he did, and then she gave him the glitter. A minute later she gave him a yellow circle. He started to glue it at the bottom of the paper, but she gently corrected him, saying that the sun belongs at the top. She then pointed to a sample project that had been made. It was a picture of the beach, with an ocean of blue fabric scraps and glitter, cotton clouds, and in the top right corner a yellow paper sun. My DS dutifully copied the sample picture and proudly showed me his beach.

AIBU to be a little sad that the nursery is giving the kids the idea of what to make and even showing them something to copy? Why can't they just put out the materials and let them create? I'm wondering if this is always the nursery's approach to art or if it's just this particular teacher. She is otherwise lovely so it's not like I would dislike her for this, but if this always how art and creativity are managed at the school it does give me a bit of pause. If it is I would still be happy with the school but I think I would like to engage them a bit (in a friendly, non-demanding way) about their reasons and figure out how it impacts other areas of the curriculum.

AIBU?

Nightmonkey, when a lot of actual practitioners and people with expertise in an area disagree with you, then I really think you should accept that you are wrong.

But the objective might have been more about thinking what is at a beach and where these things are in relation to one another.

This is not a valid exercise for nursery age art.

In Reception or Y1 I remember being instructed not to put lines coming out of my shiny sun 'as that was not realistic'.

Yet if you squint your eyes you can see lines coming from the sun when it shines.

I just got confused as to why the teacher couldn't see them too. Adults are sometimes rather blind.

mathanxiety. I am an actual practitioner with years of experience, having worked in foundation through to keystage 5 teaching and am now a headteacher. There are also a lot of people who agree with me and not the OP if you read the thread and anyway, as I have repeated a number of times I think the OP has valid concerns about this, but believe as a significant number of others on here do, that it is not in the best interests of the child to ONLY practice child-led methodology to the exclusion of all else.

Unlucky,
We have understood what is involved in children's artistic self expression, and the stages children go through, for a long time. We know which stages can be used fruitfully for instruction. 1 - 7 is not one of them.

It's only a surprise or a novelty (or it may seem like a fad) to people who weren't aware of it.

Nightmonkey:
Common sense dictates a combination of teaching methodologies is the way forward
I sincerely hope 'common sense' does not do any dictation.
It is to be hoped that pedagogy is always shaped by research and strenuous testing of results.

I have read the thread. I am aware you are an actual practitioner.

The people who agree with you do not have expertise in this area.

Well you clearly know all there is to know on this subject mathanxiety, so there is nothing I can possibly add.

I am glad it is clear.

LOL!
I'll make sure I tell my governors, staff and parents I've been doing it wrong all this time. Thanks for putting me straight.

Nightmonkey - " I couldn''t care less what you or your mate MrsDV think and I have had one post deleted, not posts, probably because one of you reported me, which is very childish."

Actually, you've had 5 posts deleted, which on a thread about a child in a nursery doing some sticking which only bothered the OP "a tiny bit", is quite some going.

Have I? Well thanks for letting me know TiggyD, I'm glad you are impressed. Personally, and I am not alone, I think the OP is quite obviously very concerned about this or she wouldn't have bothered coming on here about it to get other people's views and is thus being very disingenuous. It is a shame she doesn't have anything else to think about. In my role, I go on these discussion sites from time to time to gauge opinion etc. and I can honestly say I have never come across such a hostile, arrogant , sanctimonious, smug number of PC brigade know-it-all bullies as I have on here. I am very disappointed and it is interesting to note that Mumsnet despite their terms and conditions turn a blind eye to some of the disgraceful language and unpleasantness on here. As for all you so-called experts, I pity the children...
Now I have some safeguarding documents to read through, so delete away all you like mumsnet, I've got more important things to do...

I guess it proves that certain approaches work for certain stages. There is no one size fits all. It worked for her then but, oddly, does not now.

I also remember that about the sun, boffin. I also remember being told not to do a line for the sky. Approaches were far more conservative then so that's what most of us are used to. The trend has gone the other way now but, as with many things, it could swing back the other way. Education is not an exact science. Unfortunately, teachers do not have time to cater what they're doing to the individual either

Safe to say if nightmonkey was my DCs headteacher we'd be having a fair few 'discussions' about teaching methods....

Thank goodness I'm not then! Why don't you go and train for years to get to where I've got and then maybe I'd have more respect for your view. Now go and make some more holistic honey and granola smoothies for DC or you'll be late for your Mumsnet Mafia meeting before putting DC to bed at a time of his/her choosing (don't want to tell them what to do now do we?)

I doubt it will swing back the other way unless some bean counter type in government feels it necessary for teachers of primary age children to prove they are producing quantifiable 'progress' in art. The interventionist approach has given way to one that is backed by research, all of which points in much the same direction.

Perhaps your DD would prefer to explore an area like jewelry making or pottery? Painting/drawing are not everyone's cup of tea.

Sorry, what would I know? I'm just a lowly EYT. I only qualified 3 years ago and I'm still in the lovely, rose-tinted glasses stage of genuinely loving my job and caring a great deal about the impact my teaching methods have on the little people that are in my care.

Incidentally, I suspect I'm a good few years younger than you. I genuinely hope that in 10 years time I've got as far as you have. And I hope beyond all hope that I still have the same love for teaching, and the same understanding of the lifelong impact good quality early years provision has on children. You seem to have forgotten that.

That wasn't aimed at you mathanxiety!

Another one who can give it out but can't take it! Yes, you probably are much younger than me and having been there, I remember how hard it is to get it right all the time! Unfortunately that is the nature of the beast. I love my work and you have no right to say that about me or how I do my job. Wait 20 years and see what you think, you may feel bad about having said that.

I used to have to give my kids a little bit of artistic direction as I got bored of being enthusiastic about painting after painting of various brown splodges. God, did my kids LOVE mixing paint.

But ignore me, as now I'm reading the lower end of the thread, I've realised there's a scrap going on! Damn me and my not rtft.

They really do love mixing paint. It gives them a feeling of power. They can watch something change to purpley brown right in front of their eyes because of their own manipulation of the paintbrush. I suspect glitter offers the same encounter with magic - sparkly, Christmassy magic in a little pot, and you can make glittery patches on paper just by pouring it over glue, watch your fingers sparkle when it gets stuck to you.

It's not the same experience for the person cleaning it all up of course. Or the cat trying to bite the little bits out of her fur.

nightmonkey what did I give out? You seem to be taking everything that's said as a personal attack.

I never said you don't love your job, I said you seem to have forgotten how important early years provision is. I say this because you told the OP she'd have plenty to worry about in the future, and not to worry about this now. And a staggering amount of people have disagreed with you, which you appear to not be able to cope with. You have thrown insults at every single person who has disagreed with you, which is childish and not the sort of behaviour I'd expect from a 'headteacher'. Do you insult the parents at your school like that, when they come to you with a concern about their child?

While I agree that it is difficult to get it right all the time, I genuinely believe that the pre-school I run is doing a fine job thank you. I have good quality staff, a beautiful setting that I spent years redeveloping, an outstanding Ofsted and a waiting list that has children as young as 4 months on it (in a small town with 5 other nurseries)
So I think I'm doing alright, but thanks for the concern...

I never want this thread to end!

Nominate for classic?

nightmonkey - I have a huge amount of sympathy for teachers of all stages. Teachers now have less autonomy but are expected to be all things to all children and their parents.

IME - primary teacher for a few years and individual instrumental children for twenty years - different as I usually only work with one child at a time, but teaching children nevertheless - the best practitioners in any field would admit to their approach evolving over time.

I know mine has. I've 'experimented' with more or less emphasis on teaching technique from the first lessons. I follow a much more child-led approach than I used to. Many children have a different expectation of what they will and should get from their teachers and lessons now, compared with twenty years ago. Even with ten years ago. I'm sure I've become a much better teacher as a result.

FWIW, my younger DC went to two pre-school nurseries. He was much happier at the one which had a more child-led approach. All the nursery staff were mature mums themselves there btw, not young newly-qualified practitioners.

At primary school - three out of seven teachers complained about him, banged on and on about how he was determined to follow his own agenda but didn't take the ed psych's advice. The other four didn't report any problems with him. One teacher got him to do a maths task four times to make him do it her way. When I asked her if she thought he had understood the task she had to think for a while then said, "I suppose so". He got an A in AS level maths. His favourite teacher used to tease him about his scatterbrain instead of going on about it and he began to enjoy school again and was probably a lot more co-operative.