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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To be just a tiny bit bothered by what I saw at my son's nursery this morning?

426 replies

KingofnightvisionKingofinsight · 14/09/2016 10:38

My 3-year-old DS just started at a new nursery. The teachers are lovely and kind and DS seems happy, and obviously that's most important. But anyway...

This morning at dropoff DS wanted me to stay for a few minutes so I did. I watched him sit down at a craft table set with lovely materials including glue, glitter, scraps of fabric and cotton wool, and small yellow paper circles. My DS spent several minutes carefully applying dumping half a bottle of glue to a good portion of his paper, and then he asked the teacher to pass him some glitter. She very sweetly encouraged him to put more glue on other parts of the paper first, which he did, and then she gave him the glitter. A minute later she gave him a yellow circle. He started to glue it at the bottom of the paper, but she gently corrected him, saying that the sun belongs at the top. She then pointed to a sample project that had been made. It was a picture of the beach, with an ocean of blue fabric scraps and glitter, cotton clouds, and in the top right corner a yellow paper sun. My DS dutifully copied the sample picture and proudly showed me his beach.

AIBU to be a little sad that the nursery is giving the kids the idea of what to make and even showing them something to copy? Why can't they just put out the materials and let them create? I'm wondering if this is always the nursery's approach to art or if it's just this particular teacher. She is otherwise lovely so it's not like I would dislike her for this, but if this always how art and creativity are managed at the school it does give me a bit of pause. If it is I would still be happy with the school but I think I would like to engage them a bit (in a friendly, non-demanding way) about their reasons and figure out how it impacts other areas of the curriculum.

AIBU?

OP posts:
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gandalf456 · 16/09/2016 10:35

I don't see what's wrong with being shown a technique for a certain type of picture. It looks like this was a create a beach activity rather than any old picture. I remember the day nursery showed my daughter an easy technique for drawing a cat and it really got her started drawing more meaningful pictures where she'd only done scribbles and a big mess of paint prior to that. She doesn't do her cats the same way - she has her own style now but guidance really helped otherwise she'd have been stuck at the scribbling splodging stage for another couple of years, I reckon

CRAZZZYLADY40 · 16/09/2016 10:45

as long as there are times for their own creativity I don't think copying a template every now and again will stem a childs creativity and imagination. Being able to follow instruction is learning too!

MrsPoldark · 16/09/2016 11:14

Don't know which part of the country you're from in terms of curriculum, child led etc etc but when I trained to be an early years officer in Scotland 14 yrs ago that would've been totally frowned upon. I once had a v upset mum because we hadn't got her son to make her a Mother's Day card & had to explain that yes we had provided the materials for that activity but her son had not chosen to take part as he was busy with xyz. Sometimes I would be sitting on my hands in an attempt not to interfere but the end result is that you have a child who has created something unique that they can be proud of, they've had to think more, maybe problem solve, overcome difficulties, take ownership of anything they perceive as a "mistake" etc

plurabelle · 16/09/2016 11:46

It always strikes me that Mumnsnet is fairly full of people who want things done the 'proper' way.

This might be about washing the sheets, or having shoes on or off, or feeding their children 'proper food' - or their own or their partner's personal hygiene. There may be some correlation between this urge for 'properness' and their wish that children should be encouraged to learn to copy so that they will create 'proper' pictures.

As someone who has expertise in an artform - not visual arts - I've observed that creative activities can be poorly led in primary school and early years setting. Although there is also some good practice around.

Given the little time that there is in the National Curriculum for creative activities, it would be great if what there is could be well led - whether that's in nursery or school settings.

MrsDeVere · 16/09/2016 12:18

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

gandalf456 · 16/09/2016 12:24

I see what you are saying but, if they are doing a beach that day, it is helpful for one of the members of staff to show the techniques to create a beach picture.

Having had a child in two years in a nursery setting where there was no direction whatsoever other than handing my child a pot of pencils or a pot of paint, simply leaving them to it does not work at this stage. We had two years of brown splodge. Even my DD did not know what she had painted. She did not learn techniques such as drawing animals, people, buildings or anything else. She was not painting or being creative being left to it. She was just putting paint on paper.

I agree that some school/nursery pictures are a little generic so maybe there could be more 'ideas' put on the table - so, instead of yellow suns, there could be sunsets, too, or maybe pencils where they could do their own sun and the teacher could stress that they don't have to do it in a certain way if they want to do something different. Perhaps there could also be some ideas of what to put on the beach and it to be stressed that they could also create their own stuff with the materials provided (inc paint and pencils) or don't have to use them all.

On some days, there could be the option of paint/create anything you want, with perhaps some help/guidance, if needed, too. So, if they want to draw a cat or their Mummy, perhaps the leader could show them some tried and tested techniques to do that. This really helped my daughter grow in confidence so that she did go on to develop her own style later. We did not know she had artistic ability until she'd had guidance.

I don't think there's anything wrong with 'today, we're drawing a beach' because they do this with English - e.g. today, we're writing about what we did in the holidays.

Sometimes, when prevented with too much choice - i.e. write about whatever you like - children become overwhelmed and then stuck and lose confidence because they don't know what to do. I think I was like this as a child.

As for more conceptual, abstract techniques, they did teach both of mine this at primary - e.g. based on Picasso, Andy Warhol, which they really enjoyed. However, even conceptual artists learnt traditional techniques and then went on to find their own niche so I don't think it would necessarily stifle their creativity.

MrsDeVere · 16/09/2016 12:42

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

rogueantimatter · 16/09/2016 12:58

Why did the yellow circle have to be 'the sun' 'in the sky'. It might be the bottom of an upside-down bucket used for making sandcastles.

You can't usually see the sun as a yellow circle on a very sunny day anyway.

It's a matter of perspective too - maybe the artist was making a picture of the view from a headstand.

I really don't see why a pre-schooler should be expected to make pictures out of glue/paint/cut-out shapes of anything recognisable. It's not drawing with a pencil with the aim of creating a likeness. Recognisable drawing/painting presumably involves observational skills and skills of shading, sketching, etc.

insancerre · 16/09/2016 12:59

Im not a childcare practitioner either

Just a very qualified and experienced Early years professional with a degree and a post grad qualification in child development and I still agree with the op

This sort of thread just illustrates how hard working with children is, because everyone thinks they know all about child development because they've got children or they were children once themselves

LoisWilkersonsLastNerve · 16/09/2016 13:04

They probably get loads of free creative time. Just not during the two minutes you were there op. Nothing wrong with giving them an idea to copy imho.

MunchCrunch01 · 16/09/2016 13:12

i agree with gandalf, on the whole my dd has never learned to draw anything, and I have yet to see the miraculous creativity unleashed from all this creative free play she's experienced.

rogueantimatter · 16/09/2016 13:29

Maybe the problem is with you then MunchCrunch. Grin Maybe where you see a "brown splodge" another person sees swishy, gliding, smooth, free, luxuriant movement. Earthy colours. Childhood innocence. And enjoys the result of the creative free play.

Maybe your DD didn't make artwork for your benefit anyway!

gandalf456 · 16/09/2016 13:36

Yes, I remember marvelling at the luxuriant movement, the earthy colours, swishing and gliding and thinking, damn, I wish showed me how to paint a house but my blooming brush is going everywhere and I can't control where my hand's going.

RaqsMax · 16/09/2016 13:47

You have way too much time on your hands...

nightmonkey · 16/09/2016 13:48

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

gandalf456 · 16/09/2016 13:49

I think we all do judging by the size of this thread!

MunchCrunch01 · 16/09/2016 14:39

rogue when my also child-led creatively taught DD2 comes home with her own set of brown splodges, I shall pull up the email I've noted your lovely descriptive words on and claim that I see that in it! At least it'll help her vocab!

rogueantimatter · 16/09/2016 15:07

Great. Grin I offer you boundedless, free, velvet and force.

Gandalf should pre-schools and schools include decorating in their packed curriculum?

gandalf456 · 16/09/2016 15:13

YeahWink

MrsDeVere · 16/09/2016 15:23

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

DameDiazepamTheDramaQueen · 16/09/2016 15:29

That's a personal attack nightmonkey and against the T and C's.

It's also utter rubbish.

KentMum2008 · 16/09/2016 15:40

nightmonkey I was an Early Years practitioner (not sure why the inverted commas were necessary) and I'm now an EYT. I fully agree with the OP, if what she witnessed was typical of a day in the setting. As a one off, being instructed isn't harmful, but children who are fully led by an adult throughout their nursery life will struggle once they reach primary school. Some direction is necessary of course, but imagine a class full of children in reception who need constant reminders and hints on how to do things. Let them learn on their own, encourage creativity but don't demand it's done in a certain way. As I've said before, literacy and numeracy etc are subjects where there clear right and wrong answers. Expressive arts (music, dance, art) are exactly that, expressive. There is no right way to do things.

KentMum2008 · 16/09/2016 15:46

And incidentally, I wouldn't feel irritated or undermined by a parent who came to me asking if all our activities were adult led and if children were encouraged to do and learn things for themselves. I'd be happy to have a parent who understands the true aim of early years education. In all my years of working in the same setting, I've had around 10 of those parents....

GoblinLittleOwl · 16/09/2016 16:23

You are absolutely right to be concerned, KingofnightvisionKingofinsight; your child is not doing creative art, he is doing a directed activity. Bearing in mind the fact that art work can be used to assess young children's ability, encouraging children to slavishly imitate a prepared picture is not developing his creative skills at all. I expect it was a TA or assistant guiding him, hopefully a teacher would know better.
Do they stand over him while he is painting and 'guide' his choice of colours, and tell him where to put arms and legs on the body?
Have a word with the Leader about her educational philosophy.

CasanovaFrankenstein · 16/09/2016 16:48

nightmonkey

"OP shouldn't come on here asking for opinions and then be rude and dismissive of those who offer them."

But it's fine for posters to be rude and dismissive of the OP and her questions?