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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To be just a tiny bit bothered by what I saw at my son's nursery this morning?

426 replies

KingofnightvisionKingofinsight · 14/09/2016 10:38

My 3-year-old DS just started at a new nursery. The teachers are lovely and kind and DS seems happy, and obviously that's most important. But anyway...

This morning at dropoff DS wanted me to stay for a few minutes so I did. I watched him sit down at a craft table set with lovely materials including glue, glitter, scraps of fabric and cotton wool, and small yellow paper circles. My DS spent several minutes carefully applying dumping half a bottle of glue to a good portion of his paper, and then he asked the teacher to pass him some glitter. She very sweetly encouraged him to put more glue on other parts of the paper first, which he did, and then she gave him the glitter. A minute later she gave him a yellow circle. He started to glue it at the bottom of the paper, but she gently corrected him, saying that the sun belongs at the top. She then pointed to a sample project that had been made. It was a picture of the beach, with an ocean of blue fabric scraps and glitter, cotton clouds, and in the top right corner a yellow paper sun. My DS dutifully copied the sample picture and proudly showed me his beach.

AIBU to be a little sad that the nursery is giving the kids the idea of what to make and even showing them something to copy? Why can't they just put out the materials and let them create? I'm wondering if this is always the nursery's approach to art or if it's just this particular teacher. She is otherwise lovely so it's not like I would dislike her for this, but if this always how art and creativity are managed at the school it does give me a bit of pause. If it is I would still be happy with the school but I think I would like to engage them a bit (in a friendly, non-demanding way) about their reasons and figure out how it impacts other areas of the curriculum.

AIBU?

OP posts:
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unlucky83 · 17/09/2016 22:20

Ignoring the bun fight...
Someone up thread mentioned Scotland - we have Curriculum for Excellence - a real emphasis on child led learning etc. Adult led being completely frowned upon. (apparently they can't even have a daily story time in Nursery any more unless one of the children asks for it - that kind of organised time is too planned, adult led)
All I will say is that the attainment gap in Scotland is widening - hence introduction of primary tests.
Child led is the current trend/doctrine - no doubt in a few years it will swing back to adult led - I stick with my belief that you should have both and use commons sense.

bangingmyheadoffabrickwall · 17/09/2016 22:32

It was a few minutes, out of a few hours, from one day out of very many.

I would be concerned if children were actively encouraged to copy and told where to put 'things' when it comes to art IF it was a regular, on-going method they used. My reception colleagues do this a lot (we can tell from the very uniformed, stereotypical art work on display and from t'shirt designs they recently did) hence why when they arrive in Y1, they have no creative flair or ability to be imaginative or even DRAW at a stage that is developmentally expected of them at the age of 5.

But you have seen this ONCE in a few minutes. I could understand if this was something you witnessed a few times. But I really wouldn't be questioning this because you saw it in a snapshot.

nightmonkey · 17/09/2016 23:54

This reply has been deleted

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nightmonkey · 17/09/2016 23:58

I completely agree with you unlucky83, very sensible approach and well said.

wurlycurly · 18/09/2016 00:06

I haven't read all the comments, but of course children at this age (and s good deal older) shouldn't be give told how to use materials in this way. There is no 'right place' to put a yellow disc! And therefore no 'wrong place'. Yanbu.

DameDiazepamTheDramaQueen · 18/09/2016 00:11

I haven't called you a troll once, but it is becoming apparent to quite a few of us that you are one

You did in your earlier post -
Why don't you go troll elsewhere

nightmonkey · 18/09/2016 01:16

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TheLastHeatwave · 18/09/2016 01:20

MrsDV has been on MN since the beginning of time. She's had a couple of name changes over the years, but made no secret of it. I know more about her actual, real, personal & work life than I do half of my friends, and feel privileged to do so. She's no troll.

mathanxiety · 18/09/2016 01:38

Gandalf:
Having had a child in two years in a nursery setting where there was no direction whatsoever other than handing my child a pot of pencils or a pot of paint, simply leaving them to it does not work at this stage.
What does 'does not work' mean?
What do you understand to be the purpose of the exercise?

We had two years of brown splodge. Even my DD did not know what she had painted. She did not learn techniques such as drawing animals, people, buildings or anything else. She was not painting or being creative being left to it. She was just putting paint on paper.
That is what she was supposed to be doing - sensing the paintbrush moving across the paper, changing direction if the fancy struck her, feeling the difference between very watery paint and thicker paint as she applied it, watching how the paint changed colour as it dried. Painting is a sensory experience every bit as much as it is an expressive exercise in nursery and up to age 7ish.

The form of the end product is completely irrelevant for children this age. What they are doing at this young age is expressing exuberance or other feelings, not trying to faithfully depict a particular topic. Expression has nothing to do with logic, scale or form. It's all about emotion.

They will all develop to the stage of trying to produce more representational work at the right time for them.

The most a parent can or should directly do for young children when it comes to art is teach names for colours, provide lots of materials for self expression and encouragement to explore (i.e. not too much focus on avoiding a mess though obv most parents are going to keep their child aware of the importance of confining their self expression to paper or blackboards, etc.). You can show them how to clean up (and help them), ask them what side of their work is 'up', ask them to tell you what they were thinking about when they were doing it (not the same as asking them what it is).

Children need exposure to lots of sensory experiences at this age, and if you encourage them they will process that experience via art when they have (for instance) come home from an hour of jumping in puddles or running in the park or helping grandad in the garden. Or a trip to a beach. Don't expect a recognisable visual reproduction of any scenes from those activities. It's a good idea to stick to recent activities as inspiration for topics, though some children will be very self directed, and some will focus on themes that are particular to them.

Another element of the nursery scene the OP described that bothered me was that 'beach' may not have been a recent experience for the children, unless they all live right beside one. Some children in the nursery may have never visited a beach. 'Breakfast' might have been a better topic (though of course that may be a non-event for some children too, sadly).

A depiction of 'a beach' will feature what the child aged 4-7 feels is most important about 'a beach'. Younger children will express the topic in similar vein. Up to age 7 a child is in a 'preschematic' intellectual phase where visual depiction is concerned. It's an important phase in the development of the intellect and should not be cut short by attempts to teach 'the correct' or 'better' ways to depict topics. Colour choice, dimensions of objects that are depicted and form of objects (if any) are all done with no regard for logic; there is no aim of reproducing a reasonable facsimile of a topic, an existing picture or any sort of template. That comes much later, at age 9 and above. What the child puts on paper at nursery age is an emotional snapshot, a representation of the world that comes from his 'mind's eye' that is still developing. It is really important not to interfere with the process of expressing that.

mathanxiety · 18/09/2016 01:59

Nightmonkey, you are in a minority of one (or at most two) among declared teachers and EY practitioners in your views. The people you are agreeing with are people who clearly do not have much expertise in this area.

DameDiazepamTheDramaQueen · 18/09/2016 06:56

Yeah, that wasn't me DDTDQ! if you're going to accuse me of things, at least get it right

Apologies, you called me a sock puppet so we're quits then.

LynetteScavo · 18/09/2016 07:22

Wow! Some people made twats of themselves last night, didn't they!

OP, I totally get where you are coming from. But as long as children are also provided with opportunities to create freely to really wouldn't worry. I'm sure you'll soon notice your DS coming home with much more "free" art.

Some parents really like their DC to bring home pictures of things they can recognise, though. As this thread clearly demonstrates.

plurabelle · 18/09/2016 08:52

I had quite a lot of negative experiences as a child in relation to visual art. They were all quite small in themselves. A Reception teacher querying a couple of paintings - wanting to know what something represented on one and what had been left out. My mother saying at various points that 'It was a pity I couldn't draw like my cousins'. When I was 11 or so another teacher at my school who clearly didn't think I was much good. My uncle was an art teacher and did say positive things/show interest in anything I drew - but because had rather negative comments elsewhere, I though he must be being nice but insincere.

I'm wondering about going to classes now that I'm really quite old. Because I'd like to be able to sit down and sketch while on country walks. But there's such a paralysing anxiety after too many people implied there was something wrong with my artwork, or that I wasn't doing it properly - that I really do need to relearn/re-experience painting and drawing.

So I do think an accumulation of small instances of negativity/bad practice can sometimes be enough to put somebody off...

a8mint · 18/09/2016 10:18

The thing is that you don't know what the purpose of the exercise was. If it was about creativity then the op is right
But the objective might have been more about thinking what is at a beach and where these things are in relation to one another. Both are valid exercises but the adults role would be different in each

a8mint · 18/09/2016 10:19

And I have a diploma in pre school.practice

nightmonkey · 18/09/2016 10:51

DDTDQ, nope that wasn't me either, never used the expression sock puppet before in my life.

unlucky83 · 18/09/2016 11:15

math I do have some knowledge of this field ...and I am in Scotland - child led learning is a big deal. I have spoken to EYPs and teachers about it. The general consensus is total child led learning isn't working ... but there are wider issues than just art.
I think the core problem here is more to do with contradictions in the curriculum and the way it came be delivered.

The curriculum itself is quite prescriptive - a child 'must' know certain things at certain stages but it has to be child led...in a class of 30 - with no adult led activities ...
Over the years there have been a number of approaches to learning that have been hugely popular and the current doctrine that in retrospect were a mistake - for instance teaching children to read without the use of phonics - which failed a generation +.
I stick to my belief that it doesn't have to be all one thing or another it should be a mix...and common sense should prevail.

nightmonkey · 18/09/2016 11:49

mathanxiety, that doesn't mean I or those I agree with are wrong.
'Even if you are in minority of one, the truth is the truth' - Mahatma Gandhi.
I agree unlucky83. History is littered with examples of beliefs/guidelines that turned out to be erroneous. For years mothers were told to put their babies to sleep on their tummies, leading to numerous cot deaths for example - now we are told that is the worst, most dangerous thing to do.
Common sense dictates a combination of teaching methodologies is the way forward and I feel rather sorry for those children who are given no guidance whatsoever/no choice in the matter.

'Even if you are in a minority of one, the truth is the truth

ThumbWitchesAbroad · 18/09/2016 12:02

Well this has been an interesting read! And I admit I haven't finished reading it all.
Didn't realise it was such a "thing" to avoid giving any form of direction re. picture forming at that age; I understand the point re. creativity and not quashing imagination but I still don't entirely see what is wrong with pointing out where the sun is and where the ground is and so on. Point it out and then leave them to stick what they want where - or is that too much to hope for? Will they blindly then do what you tell them to do, simply because they've been told? In which case, yes, I understand more - back off and let them get on with it.

However. It was still just one moment in the day and the OP, despite her credentials, doesn't exactly know whether it was meant to be free creative time or directed learning, does she? Or does she? I know she's assuming things, but does she actually know?

If there is enough evidence to show that the nursery is going against accepted methodology, then by all means have a quiet word with them - it might have been just that staff member, not a policy issue, and they might be grateful to know that she's not following protocols, if that's what happened.

Aeroflotgirl · 18/09/2016 12:40

Blimey, I came on here expecting to hear of abuse, or inappropriate behaviour from staff, not this!

QuiteLikely5 · 18/09/2016 12:44

Too much time on your hands op. Yabu

gandalf456 · 18/09/2016 18:27

Math. I believe art is a combination of creativity and skill. You cannot fully capitalise on that creativity if you do not know how to use the tools at your disposal. It's a bit like a chef not knowing what you do with on oven or a builder not knowing how the bricks go together. I get that this is about very young children. I agree with the explore argument to a point but the fact that my DD got it straight away once shown what to do beyond exploring proves that she was more than ready and had left her to her own devices too long.

DameDiazepamTheDramaQueen · 18/09/2016 18:29

DDTDQ, nope that wasn't me either, never used the expression sock puppet before in my life.

You said Mrs D and I were one and the same. We're not.

I'm not engaging any further but it's worth noting that it is only you who has had posts deleted for personal attacks,you obviously can't have a reasonable conversation without resorting to rudeness and PA's.

nightmonkey · 18/09/2016 19:17

If that's what makes you happy DDTDQ. Shame you can't admit when you are wrong. I couldn''t care less what you or your mate MrsDV think and I have had one post deleted, not posts, probably because one of you reported me, which is very childish. It is interesting that posts are not deleted that include obscene language and personal attacks such as calling someone passive aggressive or wanky, twat etc. but I don't feel the need to run to teacher every time someone doesn't agree with me. You wouldn't know how to 'engage' if your life depended on it. Problem is you and MrsDevere sure know how to deal it out but you can't take it. Grow up.

mathanxiety · 18/09/2016 20:13

It's not a combination of creativity and skill before age 7, Gandalf.

Before then, the creativity is all there in the splodges, and the evidence of a productive sensory experience. Creativity isn't really the right word for the process of putting paint or glueing materials onto paper. It really is primarily a sensory and kinesthetic experience, and if it is an expressive one then that's a bonus. The process is what matters first and foremost, with the end result being beside the point to a large extent.

Your DD 'got' something, but what she got was outside of the experience of art for children her age.

My own DCs learned songs in various different languages for a Christmas programme when they were 3/4 - Norwegian, Swahili, French, Irish, Japanese and English. They did not speak those languages as a result, or understand what they were singing beyond a brief description from the teacher who trained them. It all sounded lovely though, when they performed. Some of them could even remember the songs a good while later.

Thumbwitches - the point of not allotting a normal position to sun/sky/ground is that at nursery age children are putting on paper what is most important to them emotionally about the topic - 'beach' might mean somewhere they got upended by a wave or where someone kicked sand in their hair or where they had the best time ever with mum and dad or where they lost their blankie or where they felt really small and insecure because it was all very vast - not necessarily a scene with sand on the bottom, sun in the sky and water in between. As a facilitator, you don't sweat the small details. Children are not reproducing a visually accurate scene and it is not important at all to do so. It is not an appropriate expectation of their intellectual development at this stage.

The horizontal organisation of artwork really doesn't come into play until approaching age 7. After that, children move into a schematic stage. The sky is blue. The sun in up there in the corner, sometimes smoking a pipe, and there are stiff figures that are representational rather than accurate depictions. This stage lasts from 6ish-11ish, with a shift around age 9 - lots of attention to details appearing, like eyelashes and earrings but there can be huge visual contradictions in the depictions, such as attempts to get perspective by means of avenues of trees receding into the distance alongside cars and buses that are not drawn from the same vantage point as the trees. If a child doesn't receive some input/instruction/focuses practice at this stage (more at the later end of the age range) then they may reach an artistic plateau here. This is the first point at which direct instruction should be done.

There are always outliers but in general the stages hold true.

When it comes to art, it really should always be free expression. No end product is important enough to warrant intrusion into the child's own process.