To think most of the people bemoaning grammar schools are hypocrites

[pleasemothermay1]

That's just it's really I don't mind people who have the courage of there conviction but I have no trux with champagne socialists

Like jc or Diane Abbott or Tristan hunt

Who's children all went or will be going to grammar or private

Even bloody James o Brian moaning about grammars when he rountinly says he wouldn't rule out private for his girls 😕

What a disgusting thread this is. All these comments about comprehensives being zoos and chairs being thrown most days. Am pretty certain these posters have never set foot in a standard comprehensive school.
Go and visit one...you might be surprised.

No way would bad behaviour be tolerated at any of my local comprehensives. Pupils who behave badly and regularly disrupt classes swiftly find themselves excluded and in many cases expelled. Having worked in one or two I know how they operate.

I went to a grammar school and though it wasn't the best fit for me, I did okay (though I had anorexia and anxiety and issues I still battle with today). My brother also went and coasted but did fine too - he's actually done much better since he left school and went to uni as a mature student and now works in the City (late bloomer!).

BUT it's a different world now. I turned up on the day of the test without any preparation. I'd never even done an exam before. There were two girls in my whole year from private primary schools. Now my son is in y5 and I am too late to get a tutor for him. If he wants to go to the same school as his uncle he will be competing with boys from across London and the south east (not just our borough as it was back in our day) and anecdotally from as far away as Singapore. Most have had tuition for a year or more already. One of his friends has been having tuition since year one, despite them all going to a very good, very academic primary school. Half the intake of the grammar school is from private prep schools. It's not a level playing field. It is absolute rubbish that it gives poorer kids a chance. That might have been true in the 50s, but it is not now.

I am a massive lefty and I could not care less about private schools. But all children should be welcome at their local school, not excluded because they're not clever enough or Catholic enough, or Jewish enough or whatever.

I would prefer it if there were no grammar schools in my area and would happily send my DCs to the local Academy if this was the case. I am a life long labour voter from a very left wing family.

Unfortunately we live where we live and I can't change the fact that the most academically able children go to one of the local grammars. My DS goes to a large state primary school which streams the children into two higher ability classes and two lower ability classes from the start of Y5.

Every year around 40% of the year group go on to a grammar school. The ones who have just missed out take an entrance test to attend an out of catchment state school which reserves 20% of places to children who have passed the test.

Another group of children will be sent to a private school.

The ones who can't pass the 11+ or the selection test and whose parents can't afford or don't wish to go private go to the local academy.

So the local academy has become the last resort school. ( even though it's a really good school in a very nice affluent area)

DS is in all of the top sets within the higher stream and because most of his friends are working towards the 11+ he wants to too. If he passes he will go to a grammar school even though I don't really support the idea of them. I'm not bothering with the selection test for the other school as I can't see the point of travelling out of catchment when we have a perfectly good school on our doorstep which I know works well with bright children.

My big problem will come with my DD. She struggles academically and is in the bottom set for everything. She has no SEN that have been diagnosed ( she had a difficult start in life and we were told to expect learning difficulties) but she clearly struggles with learning. The local academy will not be the place for her as she will get lost and even more behind her peers in such large classes.

We are currently looking at our finances to see if we can afford a private secondary education for her.

So when it comes to my children's education I'm afraid I have indeed become a complete and utter hypocrite!

YANBU. May has played an absolute blinder with this and cannot lose, even if it doesn't
go through.

Labour's disillusioned working class voters are the ones who stand to gain most out of this. They're the ones who live outside the south east and can't afford to move to good catchment areas. Even if it doesn't go through, May will have led Labour into voting for a system which entrenches privilege on the basis of wealth rather than merit. And Labour's working class voters will see them yet again favouring a system which benefits their wealthy middle class metropolitan liberal voters rather than the blue collared core.

It's not really surprising that there is opposition on MN. The demographic on here is exactly that which stands to lose out the most - wealthy middle class professionals who can afford to live in good catchment areas and don't want the uncertainty of selection when they can currently just buy themselves a good school place.

But it's going to play terribly for Labour, lots of figures who've attended grammar school or sent their children there voting against poorer voters getting the same opportunity. It's win-win for the Tories, even if it doesn't go through Labour are going to be the losers.

CallaLilli
OP has a history of being a bit of a GF who loves sticking knife into "liberal lefties"...
Do you think posters who stick knives into Tory voters are also goady fuckers?

Alfieisnoisy you sound naive. Of course some comprehensives are excellent. When we went to look round the one where my dd has just started we were immediately impressed by the atmosphere of quiet focus and learning. Sadly the one that was local to us at that point was nothing like that.
The system is currently only working for a proportion of children. Grammars will only work for a proportion of children. But lets not pretend everything is lovely now because it's not.

BillSykesDog I think you are right it is a votewinner.

Billsykesdog I read your post and felt utterly despondent at how right you most likely are. Labour really need to up their game if they have any chance of taking on May regarding this and to be 100% clear as to why Labour should be opposing it. I truly hope Corbyn can deliver on this.

Bill. Kate Hoey is aware of the facts that the grammar school argument is going to play well with 'Labour voters' , the ones who are not '20 somethings charity workers from Cardiff '.

I also suspect that Frank Field would probably be 'pro' grammar schools or at least 'Neutral' on the idea.

If Labour ever want to become a viable 'Government' offering policy ideas that are appropriate to a very large section of the 'White Working Class' they need to listen to kate Hoey/ Frank Field.

They also need to start 'stealing' UKIP's ideas (YES THEY DO) not 'LIONISING' their leader for sitting on a floor.

Grammar schools is exactly the sort of policy the Labour party should be proposing instead .

They are so up their 'ARSE' and taken in by the views of the 'liberal' left , they are unable to do the right thing for the working class !

The Labour party also believe the reason the 'Poor' or Working class people should vote for them is because they will be £20-30 a week better off!

A grammar school education for these families by contrast , could enable these families to be £300-400 PW better off 'real' Social Mobility!

The Labour Parties idea of Social Mobilty is a £20-30 PW pay rise !

But what alternative can Labour offer? It's been, what, 50 years since the grammar system was abolished, and it's never gone beyond selection by house price.

Rather than opposing plans for grammars, Labour should support them, but with caveats to make sure that the system is harder to beat on the basis of tutoring etc.

It just seems ridiculous that Labour are supporting a system which gives advantages on the basis of wealth rather than merit just because they're too pig headed and stubborn to admit their idealism was misplaced.

Do you think posters who stick knives into Tory voters are also goady fuckers?

If they were talking about austerity or welfare then I'd say no, if they were doing it just for the sake of it then I'd say yes. But the current situation re grammar schools has been proposed by a Tory PM. So I'm not sure why OP is going on about "liberal lefties" as Theresa May is anything but.

Or we could just have properly funded comprehensives - comprehensives that do a superb job (better than the grammar system) but the tories have been deliberately underfunding so when they dangle this faux carrot in front of you, you will vote for the bunch of slimey evil bastards next time.

What Labour can offer is ensuring that every school is a good school irregardless of where you live. It's that simple in my opinion and that would be a vote winner. That takes a commitment to spending which is an anathema to a Tory government hamstrung by austerity politics and therefore not investing adequately in the next generation. Grammar schools are not a panacea for raising standards. It just moves the goalposts for some.

What Labour can offer is ensuring that every school is a good school irregardless of where you live. It's that simple in my opinion and that would be a vote winner

How come no government has ever achieved this then? Is it even achievable?

I don't think parents who live in poor school areas believe it is. I think they will see that as a false promise, which Labour don't even intend to pursue, but it will be promised with no intention of delivery.

Maybe so, but that's up to voters. The grammar school announcement wasn't in the manifesto. This government are making it up as they go along. Labour did invest in education, did bring in legislation such as Every Child Matters and did make a real commitment and investments to reduce child poverty. Those families that need support are now seen as scroungers and feckless. That's Tory austerity politics along with free schools and all the changes in education that have reduced standards and made the curriculum more and more difficult to access for those children who struggle or who are average. How are Grammar schools going to help those children who are the majority. Investment is needed. It's not happening with the Tories.

Totally agree op. Even in my own family the loudest shouting socialist who fully backed comps when they came out - sent his own dc too.....Drum Roll.......

Boarding school. My own siblings when to comps and have nothing to show for it, my dm hero worshiped her db but lost faith over this.

He of course had a grammar education!! He got pay back though and he positively encouraged his own dc to take it easy over exams and now they all blame him for never encouraging them to do well...

Labour did invest in education, did bring in legislation such as Every Child Matters and did make a real commitment and investments to reduce child poverty

So why were the schools round me in utter crisis trying to cope with huge numbers of non English speaking children in their classes? Why were councils in dire straights trying to pull money from other services to get more teachers and helpers into classrooms? Or did every child matters really mean the whole of EE which Blair seemed so keen to cram into our country?

How come no government has ever achieved this then? Is it even achievable?

Labour were in power for a very long time.
In that time the comps near me are still shit, they are still failing DC and have never changed bar slightly better results then back down to awful ones. Other primary schools have been in utter crisis with the huge waves of immigration that hit my area.

Now we have new schools built, extra class rooms built etc etc etc.

I really wish some people would take their Labour goggles off and look at the reality of whats happened.

Kids whose first language isn't English tend to outperform British kids, they actually boost school results.

Now we have new schools built, extra class rooms built etc etc etc.

A lot of new school builds were down to Labour and the Building Schools for the Future program. My school was due to get a new building but one of the first things the Tories did was cancel BSF so we are stuck in a leaky, crappy old building.

If Labour ever want to become a viable 'Government' offering policy ideas that are appropriate to a very large section of the 'White Working Class' they need to listen to kate Hoey/ Frank Field

couldn't agree more sandy Couldn't agree more.

sorry not getting your meaning there noble unless your trying to argue that what the labour gov did was a good thing for the pupils already in situ in the schools that suddenly had to assimilate very large numbers of non English speakers?

But it's going to play terribly for Labour, lots of figures who've attended grammar school or sent their children there voting against poorer voters getting the same opportunity. It's win-win for the Tories, even if it doesn't go through Labour are going to be the losers.

this

• all it looks like is they white labour lefties who live in places like Chiswick and ilsilington pulling the ladder up behind them I clearly remember who installed tuition fees into out education system so think labour mostly talk horse shit on education when they bemoan Tories on that issues as well David car on had Nancy in a academy while jc child went to a grammar who would of thunk it*

Here's the thing. 130 of the 173 failing secondaries are in the north and midlands, just 43 in the south Sky News on north south schools divide
This divide, I believe, is why so many posters are in such deep denial about the quality of so much comprehensive education.

I just don't see anybody being about to throw more money at the schools in the north, Labour or Tories. Exactly as BillSykes says - nobody really believes that Labour are about to finally sort out the entrenched crapness in the schools that have been bad for a long time. Grammar schools are at the moment the only plan anybody is offering us. It might well be a TERRIBLE plan, but it's the only one, so it's hardly surprising people who are already being failed are inclined to twist rather than stick.

I think this is going to turn out to be a very similar political situation to Brexit - provinces versus London and the southeast.

Money would be better spent making every state comp a good school so that every child receives the education they deserve, Then it wouldn't be a divisive system and each child would attend their local school - just like they used to.
My child has SEN (high functioning autism) - he is very bright but would not get into a grammar as he would not be able to pass 11 plus.

humid my meaning was that anyone moaning about a bunch of non-English speakers turning up in their schools, presumably disrupting their poor DC's education should be aware of how hardworking and high-attaining many of those children will be; the types of pupils MNetters want to have in schools with their kids.